SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

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SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

Postby IndyGSP » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:01 pm

OK I have a b---- about SR hunt test. What are the rules on honoring in a sr hunt test? This is what the rules state -

In Senior, the Regulations state that the handler may
give a dog a verbal command to honor but the dog
must see or acknowledge that its bracemate is on point
before it has been cautioned to honor.
A dog cannot be
heeled into its honor. Once the dog has established its
honor, the handler may collar the dog to prevent interference
with the pointing dog when the bird is flushed.
But, remember, the dog must clearly demonstrate it is
honoring before it can be collared.

So I was in a sr hunt test on Friday and Saturday and Friday got a ribbon and on Sunday with diff. judges did not recieve one. Bracemate was on point brought my dog around and when she looked up I gave a verbal comand and she obeyed. Judge tells me to collar my dog and I said I still needed a retrieve and he said that I was out because I whoaed my dog to soon they wanted to see her acknowledge the point before I put my dog on whoa. If the rules say see or acknowledge why did I fail?
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Postby R.R.Rouse » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:40 pm

I am thinking the judge thought you gave a command before the dog saw the pointing dog. Just a thought!
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Postby IndyGSP » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:48 pm

No he personaly told me that he wanted to see the dog acknowldege the pointing dog before I whoaed her and had me do a recall, so I did the same thing because she was not going to back the little britt that I was running with. And that is why I am running sr level instead of master because I knew I had some isues, and my goal is to run in the 2009 Invitational she just passed her Utility test with a Prize I 196, so I thought this would be good practice to run sr then master AKC test. I felt like I just wasted time and money if I knew that I could not whoa her into a back than I would have waited till she was backing better. I thought being able to whoa into back in a test setup would help training. Maybe I am wrong maybe I am reading the rules diff. than what they mean, that is why I posted on here to get some qualification.
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Postby Honeyrun » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:42 am

Rule of thumb that I always tell people. When you are at the line ready to break away, ASK the judges what they consider "Acknowledgement" on the back. Every judge has a different opinion of this. As a judge, I always inform the handlers what I expect during a backing situation so there is absolutely no questions when it happens.
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Postby IndyGSP » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:48 pm

Honeyrun

What do you expect from a sr hunt test dog?
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Postby terryg » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:02 pm

Honeyrun wrote:Rule of thumb that I always tell people. When you are at the line ready to break away, ASK the judges what they consider "Acknowledgement" on the back. Every judge has a different opinion of this. As a judge, I always inform the handlers what I expect during a backing situation so there is absolutely no questions when it happens.


excellent point and if you are going to run a dog you should know the rles at least as well as teh judge does as you are asking them for a score.

get as much info from the judge as possible and wacth him/her judge others dogs to get a feeling for his/her calls as it may be slightly different than you understood them to say.


do not hestitate to ask them why ythey made a particular call.

btw, have you ever kept quiet to see if you dog would back on its own? imo, an sh should and an mh better :wink:
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Postby Honeyrun » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:10 am

Indy,

As a judge - I expect to see a dog acknowledge the pointing dog. This can be done by a distinct change of direction toward the pointing dog, change in speed, whether it be slow up or speed up. You do not want the dog to see the other dog and then turn away. Your timing of the "whoa" command is critical and you should allow for your dog to "start" the backing process prior to commanding it.

As a competitor - I want my dogs to stop and honor on their own, even in the SH test. I do not expect them to stand there tho. Since in SH, it is permissible to give a verbal command after the point, if I see a dog coming in to back and they are looking like they are not going to, I will give a very harsh "WHOA" to my dog, even if they don't need it, in hopes that it stop the other dog. Being Pro Active in this case could keep you from failing due to your dog breaking when the other dog comes cruising past to take the bird out.

Hope this helps.
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Postby slistoe » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:26 am

Honeyrun wrote:You do not want the dog to see the other dog and then turn away.
That is as much an acknowledgment as any other behavior. Dogs that blink backs will do exactly that. Dogs that are good at blinking backs will not even let you see them acknowledge the other dog. Dogs that blink backs are far more useful in the field hunting than dogs the speed up towards another dog when they see them pointing. Those types of dogs are next to useless in a brace hunting.
Honeyrun wrote:Your timing of the "whoa" command is critical and you should allow for your dog to "start" the backing process prior to commanding it.
Speeding up towards the other dog is NOT a "start" to the backing process.

But whatever, the rules are the rules and if there were exceptions for every circumstance there would be no rule so that is what it is.

Indy, whatever Cindy thinks about what acknowledgement means is pointless in regards to your situation. The only thing that matters is what the judge of the day thinks in regards to acknowledgement. It sounds like he even gave you a second chance and even knowing from immediate experience what the judge would like to see you still did it how you saw fit. The fault lies with you, not the judge. It was not a waste of your time and money if you learned something from it but from the tone of your posts in this thread it would seem to me that you have not learned at all and you still think that everything should always be as you want it to be - so playing in any dog games of any type will always be a waste of time and money for you. Take your dog hunting with yourself only and you will always get to be judge.
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Postby IndyGSP » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:20 pm

First of all slistoe I did learn something that their is a big grey area in the rules, if you read them they say the dog must see or acknowledge let me say it again see or acknowledge so if my dog looks up and see's than I should be able to give a verbal command. But it is not that way in the test so I DID LEARN SOMETHING JUST TRAIN FOR MASTER and have them slamming the backs before I go back out, no problem. But do me the favor and read what the rules say and not what you judges would like to see. That is why AKC has so much drama is because anyone can take a little test and be a judge.
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Postby Hunters Edge » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:06 pm

First many have not been to a seminar going over the rules (judges)

Second some judges judge the way want rather than the standard which is see or acknowledge, which means if the dog sees the dog you can whoa him into a back/honor.

Third my guess is you said whoa when the judge thought your dog could not possibly see the pointing dog ( you said yourself will not back the SMALL brittany)

Fourth lets just say the judge thought the dog looked right at the dog on point you yell whoa, and instead of honoring/backing the dog, your dog stops but looks behind him at you or even turns away looking at something else. The dog has to back/honor the dog you can say whoa when the dog sees the other dog but turning its head to look away, look at you etc is not acknowledging the pointing dog and is not HONORING or BACKING the pointing dog if it is looking at YOU, it is not backing. On the otherhand it did come to a stop on whoa, but that is not honoring.

Was not there so I am not making a call, but here are reasons above why or how it might have happened.
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Postby slistoe » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:32 pm

You thought your dog saw the other dog, the judge didn't. Like I said Indy, don't waste any more of your time and money.
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Re: SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

Postby IndyGSP » Sun Oct 12, 2008 4:28 pm

Slistoe,

Thank you for your for your quick responce, you have to be the most knowledgable dog person on here. You really make alot on sence, maybe everyone should just get there help from you. I undersatnd I have some work to do with my dog but I am new to this and thought I was allowed to whoa into back, my fault. But I will be ready before the next time I enter another AKC event. So I will not waste any more money or time.
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Re: SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

Postby R.R.Rouse » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:17 pm

Indy sorry I didn't get back to ya sooner was gone hunting !!!!!
I think you are doing the right thing to get your dog ready for Inv. I also think you should train for Master test and then you can run Senior to get the experince for your dog and your self. Really hard to say what was going on in the judges mind as I didn't see what he saw obviously, I wasn't there. You are allowed to woa your dog once your dog has seen the other dog on point in Senior test. I have been under judgement where the judge forgot he was judging SR. and not Master. I cautioned my dog with a woa and judge said to pickup my dog. The other judge then road over and said this is a Sr. dog and was able to continue. Stay after it with your dog you will get there.
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Re: SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

Postby uplander1 » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:33 am

I know this post has long since been done how ever I was killing some time and browsing through V-dog.

The rule on a SH dog honoring is very grey at best. Honeyrun is right in that as a handler you should ask the judge with any clarification you may need.
For the most part a judge will give a tie breaker to the dog, or he should anyway.

The Acknowledgement of a dog pertaining to another dog is one tricky issue as it can come in many different forms. Can be slowing down a pace, may even quicken a pace. The acknowledgement can be sometimes ver hard to detect.

As a rule if you as a handler know that your dog is going to steal point then whoa the dog as at that point you have nothing to loose!


As a competitor - I want my dogs to stop and honor on their own, even in the SH test. I do not expect them to stand there tho. Since in SH, it is permissible to give a verbal command after the point, if I see a dog coming in to back and they are looking like they are not going to, I will give a very harsh "WHOA" to my dog, even if they don't need it, in hopes that it stop the other dog. Being Pro Active in this case could keep you from failing due to your dog breaking when the other dog comes cruising past to take the bird out.


Honeyrun so as a judge now if the harsh whoa you have given was now interpeted as a command shoudl your dog fail? How about the other dog coming in, if that dog stops based on your "harsh" whoa should that dog pass the honor portion? I am not saying you are wrong as a competitor but following the rules of a handler it might be a border line call on whether you just had your dog fail .
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Re: SR Hunt Test Honoring rules?

Postby Honeyrun » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:20 am

Uplander1,

In Senior, you are allowed to talk and whoa your dog AFTER they have established their point. No deductions should be given in doing so. Better to give a command in that situation instead of letting the other dog fly past yours, take the bird out and your dog now breaks. In Senior (I use it as a training ground for Master), I would rather get a lower passing score, rather than take a chance with having high scores in everything but one area and get a 4 and fail.

Lots of interpretation differences, that is why I ALWAYS ask the Senior level judges prior to breaking away. In Master, it doesn't matter as you have to do it or you are out.
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