AKC Hunt Test

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:38 pm

I don't think any dog should be 'rewarded" with a title unless it can show a decent duck search. Throwing a "chicken" in the water is not a search and not much of a retrieve. But, at least the first step has been taken.

Steve,
I also have been amazed at how many young dogs have difficulty with the water. Can't determine if its poor training and upbringing or truly a genetic problem. I think a serious breeder would have to avoid such dogs if versatility were a priority.

But what do you expect from show people.....when a show championship, a NA score (of any kind!!) and a Rally title qualifies the dog as a "Versatile Dog". Like I said, its about feeling good, not earning something of value.
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Postby gezer » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:20 pm

Jon, don't think anyone here is an advocate of that...Rally....don't even know what that encompases...I think that the Idea of Certs that could be added to the exsisting test series JH/SH/MH would really enhance the v-ness of some v-dawg folk that are in AKC test territory...you can find test here all the time....try looking for a NA test in Ga, AL, SC, NC, Fl that happens more than once a year...See some NAVHDA chapters up north doing multiple test per year and are still full...I think that during SH and MH testing phase a dog could also cert in DUCK search, and retrieve, Hare track, Bloodtrack.ectect...kind of like the extra stuff the German system can add to a ahnentafel
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Postby Steve Anker » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:36 am

-thats why we have NAVHDA, VeeeDawgerz!-


for competent duck searches, and a more Veee for Versatile Dog.

AKC- as my mixed metaphor friend would say -izz a horse of a different feather- their agenda can be effected by many factors.

But Heck yeah, anything that'll tighten up a Title, even if it makes things a bit more challenging, ya bet yer bippy you know I'm for it!
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Postby Blue River » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:22 am

Ron,
One major problem is the qualifications for becoming a judge. In AKC I am quite sure a judge only needs to apprentice TWICE to judge at the same level apprenticed or lower. In NAVHDA there is quite a bit more apprentice hours to log before you can judge, and for good reason. The NAVHDA tests are far more dynamic that the AKC. If they were to add water work that was a bit more challenging, all judges would need to be retrained. As Steve said, the two venues are different for a reason. The AKC hunt tests are concerned with upland work only. I think you need to start yourself a NAVHDA chapter and solve the problem!
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Postby Steve Anker » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:03 am

NAVHDA and their Judges-

I've oft said- NAVHDA treats their apprentices like a "red headed Stepchild", the rigor they go through before they get their button is intense. When you see a NAVHDA Judge, know one thing, they have seen a ton of dogs, been through the system themselves (req'd) and they have passed review by the Senior judging staff.

I can appreciate the process,

AKC is making attempts to remove some grey areas in the HT program, but a lot more is needed. Currently, RE-certification is a requirement making attendance to a 2007/8 seminar mandatory for even longtime judges like myself. (good thing i think)

Aint much, but it is an attempt to close the gaps...
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Postby KYgsp » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:14 am

Blue River wrote:Ron,
One major problem is the qualifications for becoming a judge. In AKC I am quite sure a judge only needs to apprentice TWICE to judge at the same level apprenticed or lower. In NAVHDA there is quite a bit more apprentice hours to log before you can judge, and for good reason. The NAVHDA tests are far more dynamic that the AKC. If they were to add water work that was a bit more challenging, all judges would need to be retrained. As Steve said, the two venues are different for a reason. The AKC hunt tests are concerned with upland work only. I think you need to start yourself a NAVHDA chapter and solve the problem!


If I knew for sure they were all like the one I witnessed I would confidently say that the whole process is the problem. It was a bunch of show breeders and yuppies with in vogue dogs. Almost all of them heeled their dog around the "course" to a very small bird field where they then failed miserably at finding birds, retreieving, backing, etc, etc.
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Postby Steve Anker » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:16 am

Steve,
I also have been amazed at how many young dogs have difficulty with the water. Can't determine if its poor training and upbringing or truly a genetic problem. I think a serious breeder would have to avoid such dogs if versatility were a priority.


Jon-

You'd be shocked if I told ya, a fella who represents a large organization, his dog REFUSED to swim out and pick up a bird and retrieve it to the circle, a high TITLED DOG! Shocking...(he's not a poster here)
Me- I believe its just results of an IMproper initiation to water, 'never really had a dog that would not follow me into the pond, or one that I couldn't softly intro, never-

It would be a perfect world if all this data were compiled and thus a breeder could reference all this information for the sake of breeding, but it's doubtful it will ever be. NAVHDA tries, forming a basic feature review at testing and incorporating into the test results any overt FLAWS, not much but it attempts to offer this info to prospective breeders.
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Postby Vom Britt » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:32 pm

Tony, Deb, Gezer & all,

Tony, not sure how to take your post but am leaning toward you believe the TCGWPC and its water test is good for the breed. I (hate that word I) have been the person in charge of the water test for the past few years and have basically used the NAVHDA Utility Prep water retrieve in our water tests. The first year all I heard about was this NAVHDA guy setting up a the test and how difficult he would make it for my dog. Well, the first one was a basic 35-40 yard retrieve complete with me firing,calling the dogs name and running out of pebbles to throw for the dogs which had limited or no water exposure. It was poor but better than the dogs I passed at Backwoods water, which at the time was no more than a watering hole for horses & was a joke for this NAVHDA guy.The second year we did some research and a rep was on hand for the hunt test. In a conversation with him I asked about the rock throwing and he told me a dog should be failed if a rock was tossed. That was all I needed to hear and took some flak that day across the water from one very unhappy woman because I would not throw a rock for her dog like they could at the Nationals. Don't know if that was true but in any case the retrieve we do is an easy one if the dog is prepared to go out and search if they miss the mark. The handlers pro and ameature alike who have tested at our water know what they have to do to pass their dog. The ones that haven't prepared their dogs make it a very long test for this old guy sitting in his skiff :roll:

Deb, it is Ok to call me Bob, Vom Britt, or VB :wink: I agree with you basically because of logistics. I also am in in the camp which believes all birddogs should have the oppurtunity to pass a water test, but make it a seperate test of 35- 40 yards with adequate cover. The title would be awarded and added to a dogs AKC pedigree when they have earned a field SH, MH, FC or the AFC title. Another way for a dog to earn a WT ribbon, since AKC and NAVHDA now recognize each other could be a NAVHDA UPT or UT tested dog (not passed) with a water retrieve 3 or 4 which as we know would be more than enough to qualify for the title.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:54 am

The Del Val GWP club will hold a water test this August in Colliers Mills. Don't know the exact date yet, but will post it when I do. All GWP's and Weims are invited to come, actually any breed may come.

Last year we had Steve come down and give us a great little seminar on starting the breaking process, Thanks Steve. Actually, everyone wants you to come again this year!!!!????

A GWP club can hold a seperate water test, doesn't have to be part of a hunt test or field trial. Our club holds it as part of a fun day, picnic day for our members. Also, a GWP can enter any Weim water test to complete that part of the SH & MH requirement. So, if you don't have a GWP club in your area (and that may be something for you out of the way GWP folks should consider) you can find a closer Weim club and ask them to run a test.

A GWP (and Weims) have always had to complete a water test to finish a FC or AFC title, somehow those dogs have historically managed to find a test somewhere to get it done. If completion of the title is important enough to you, you sometimes have to make the effort to find the event to get it done.

The GWP's are the only breed who requires a water test for these titles, all other breeds were asked to join us when we approached AKC, but not one took us up on the offer. Does this make it more difficult for our breed to get that title? Yes. Should it? I believe so.

Is the water test too simple. Yes it is. Could it be more difficult? Yes it could. If members wish to present it to the club for consideration, go for it! Write it up, get some support and send it in. But be prepared to be asked to actually do some of the work to get it done.

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Postby Vom Britt » Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:58 am

Dual, please post the language the GWPC has written on its current policy on setting up a water retrieve and the passing of the WT. This language would be useful for handlers and judges alike. Because in my experience setting up water tests, the majority of the AKC judges & handlers were not familiar with the WT rules like they are with the fields. IMO, it is the clubs responsibility to make sure the rules are followed, the retrieve is not a gimme and the dog has to prove it has the ability to mark, swim and retrieve. Otherwise, why have it? How is the WT set up at Del Val? Does the club allow handlers to throw stones to get the dog to enter water? Do you really believe a more difficult WT would pass through the GWPC & its members? Like Tony mentioned, "if you want to get your monies worth of water retrieve enter one at the TCGWP club." But then again, maybe proving you dogs water abilities is not the objective for some. One thing is for sure, as long as I am asked to run the test it will not be a gimme and handlers will have to expose their dogs to water if they want that ribbon, because the WT title needs to be earned.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:45 am

AKC WATER TEST - from the rule book
If a club wished to hold a Water Test in conjunction with
its licensed or member field trial, hunting test or as a
“stand-aloneâ€
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:11 am

Now to your question of how does Del Val set up their test?

At the site we used for the past couple of years, the bird tosser is placed out of sight with the blank gun. The place they stand is on the same side of the bank as the dog, but it is on a small spit that sticks out into the water.

Dog is brought to the line, bird is thrown, gun is fired, dog is let loose to make the swim.

A line is drawn in the dirt and the dog must retrieve the bird back over that line.

It is a large lake, not a puddle.

Rocks tossed? If the dog is making a good effort to find the bird and is just off the mark, I don't have a huge problem with a pebble or two tossed to bring him back into the correct area. If the dog is refusing to enter the water or simply playing and not making an effort, then it should not pass.

I have seen dogs pass who probably shouldn't have, but that is why we have judges. It is up to the committee to make sure the judges know what is expected.

Last year, our judges failed a dog who simply was not being serious in the work. She eventually brought the bird back, but it was not good water work. She didn't deserve to pass and she didn't. Guess what... it was a dog I co-owned (but didn't handle) and she embarrassed the heck out of me!!!! I know the dog swims and have seen her retrieve from water many times, but not that day.

When we finish up the official test, we set up some decoys, bring out the big bird launcher and do more difficult work. It's good for the owners who have never done this type of work to see what they should be expecting of their dogs, and hopefully gives them something to strive for.
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Postby gezer » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:59 pm

Dual...I like
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Postby Vom Britt » Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:41 am

Dual, the way you described Del-Val's WT, is close to the way we run ours. We have a longer retrieve, but about (big word) 10 yards should not make a difference to a dog prepared for water. Your thrower is hidden, I am crouched in my skiff. The major difference is we do not allow rocks to be thrown which follows the rules you have posted for us. The wording "about 20 yds." and how it is interpreted could be changed. When I am in charge of setting up the test it will be at least 20 yds. not less, unless otherwise told to shorten it up. If that happens my 200ft. tape will come out :roll: Rock throwing, if it is used in the way you describe I do not have a problem with as long as it is written in the rule book, but how many will be allowed to be thrown?

This test is for a title, and needs to be earned, which is not difficult by any means. When I look at the rules you posted (thank-you) and it states 20 yd. retrieve, I see working my dogs to a minimum of 40 yds. When the rules say at least 100 yd. blind retrieves, I see 200 yd. blind retrieves. That is the mind set one should have when preparing their dog for this test and it will be a gimme. The WT does not need to be made more difficult but the rules as written need to be made clearer and or followed. I'll probably get some flak on following the rules because we set up longer than "about" 20 yds. but then again about is very difficult to determine across water :)
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Postby Tony » Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:38 pm

Vom Britt wrote:Tony, not sure how to take your post but am leaning toward you believe the TCGWPC and its water test is good for the breed.

"good for the breed"

:lol: That's a good one :lol:

I thought your water test was a crock of sh!t. Every water test ribbon that I have in my collection was earned at the TCGWP test, and if I had known that you had changed the standard, I wouldn't have wasted my time or entry fee. Since the water test standard is so vague, there is no limit to how easy or difficult a club can make their test.

IMO, the GWP Water Test requirement is a joke; it is just another hoop for us doggy gamers to jump through. If I want a judge's opinion on my dogs water work, I will enter a NAVHDA test.
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