AKC Hunt Test

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

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Postby Vom Britt » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:31 am

Tony, calling me creepy was flaming, please read the rules on this sight which are direct and to the point, quite unlike wording like "about" which I can not find on either the GWPC or AKC sights. That WT gimme you were so proud of was originally going to be set up on the same water your dog had problems with, just like in the past few years. The reason that WT was set up at the SH & MH field grounds was, a person came up to me and said he had a launcher which could launch birds at least 20 yds. When we tested the launcher and it failed to operate, I was forced to hand throw from shore. Those throws were all less than 10 yds. and you walked away with your gimme and your blue ribbon. You know, I have heard two persons complain about our tests, one who prefers shows and the other one who favors FT over hunt tests, go figure.

The past WT rules were brought to my attention and just like myself this person thought the rules stated a swim of 20-40 yards, so I looked once again for my rule book and could not find it. Is this correct or have the rules been changed? In any case, I have written the AKC for those rules both past and present. I will post what I have received about the distance a dog must swim for the retrieve & follow them to a T, if we haven't already done so, even if we have to dumb the test down more than the test already is. If I am forced to carry a pail of rocks for dogs which refuse to enter the water like yours, this volunteer is finished. We will also make sure the rules are on hand at the WT sight and make it a point to let handlers know so they can read them. Hopefully by doing this, I will not have to put up with the BS people spew over the net because they felt their dog was given the shaft, where the sun don't shine. Any problems with this :?:
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:00 pm

If I am forced to carry a pail of rocks for dogs which refuse to enter the water like yours


Sounds like all isnot well in FT land :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Tony » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:34 pm

Bob,

I didn't call you creepy, my puppy did. :lol: She had no idea what you were doing out there in the boat, and she saw no reason to swim out and see what you threw in the water. I have observed or participated in several GWP Water Tests in the past 15 years and they have all been pretty much the same, except yours. IMO, there should be a standard. Why shouldn't I get the same gimme that every FC or AFC has gotten for the past 30 years? Please post the Water Test rules.

BTW, she earned a Prize I NA last weekend with two simple retrieving dummy throws.
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Postby Tony » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:47 pm

dualgwp wrote:The entire Board fought it for almost 2 yrs. Unfortunately the people out there did not stand up and fight with us, we heard nada from the hunting community, they did not stand up and say no. Saying nothing is like saying you agree and when it appears the majority of the membership agrees there isn't much to be done to stop it.


When I first read about the Versatility program in the Wire News, I assumed that the Board was all for it. I wish I had called some of the board members to get the whole story. IMO, the program is a waste of time and energy.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:47 am

If you will look on page 3 of this, ahem, discussion, you will find the rules taken directly from the rule book.

The Versatality proposal was printed in several issues of the Wire News. At the Annual meeting of the club, held in Illinois, Greg Dubois gave a very detailed power point program on it. This information was sent to every club member prior to the meeting and we encouraged everyone to attend so opinions could be heard. Unfortunately, we only had a few dissenting points of view in attendance, ..... oh well.

I wish you had asked some folks earlier as well. Knowing the people in this club, I doubt too many will put in for it anyway. I agree it's pretty much a waste of time, and the clubs money. It's basically an award program for the owner, it tells us no more about the dog then we already knew.

Glad you were not in the floods way! The situation out in that part of the country shows us that this dog stuff is just that... stuff!
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:32 am

As long as the majority of the members in a working dog club agree that obedience, rally, and show championships are integral parts of a "versatile" dog, and can be accepted in lieu of meaningful working dog performance,
you will have a problem. This will not change within the official breed club...
simply because the majority of members are not serious working dog owners.

The answer is simple...........a serious hunter, Vdog enthusiast should gravitate to NAVHDA or the VDD. There you will find folks that are serious about versatile work and have some meaningful expectations of what dogs should do.

Concerning the WT, does a dog have to deliver to hand? or just get it to shore? I ask only because putting down a wounded duck so it can scurry off into the water again is not what I would expect of a MH or FC.
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Postby Vom Britt » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:04 am

Tony,

Three years ago I ran a 6 mo. pup in a WT at the same sight you did this year and she failed because she missed the mark, but she did make it to the skiff. I walked away thinking next year she will be better prepared & was. I do agree with you that the test has nothing to do with a dogs versatility but a gimme water retrieve proves nothing either, just another hoop to go through for a title like you mentioned.

I received an e-mail from AKC. In my original message I requested rules both past & present for a pointing breed water test. The first reply, was I requesting rules for a trial or a test? Obviously she missed " pointing breed" so sent another note :roll: I am sure the rules Dual posted are accurate but wanted to find out if any recent changes have been made. Congrats on your pups NA Prize I. Perhaps if this Creepy old guy in camo, to your dog of course, had arched a bumper instead of a bird we wouldn't be having differences of opinion. The rules as Dual posted are vague and should be clarified and then followed as closely as possible, JMHO.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:41 pm

Jon, what part of this is so hard to understand. The water test is similiar to a NA water test, except the dog must make the retrieve.

It is not meant to be, never was meant to be more than seeing the dogs swim, retrieve, that's it.

You have made you point, you don't like it, you don't have to do it since you do not have AKC dogs, have never finished a Senior or Master title on any of your dogs, and certainly have no interest in a FC title.

The rules have been posted, no changes, no updates, they are what they are.
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Postby KJ » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:55 pm

The Versatality proposal was printed in several issues of the Wire News. At the Annual meeting of the club, held in Illinois, Greg Dubois gave a very detailed power point program on it. This information was sent to every club member prior to the meeting and we encouraged everyone to attend so opinions could be heard. Unfortunately, we only had a few dissenting points of view in attendance, ..... oh well.


I emailed the program coordinator my thoughts on what should be required for the 3 levels of versatile titles, which included a point sytem using NAVHDA, hunts tests, field trials, NSTRA and a show CH. I thought it was a great idea, however, it was being taken completely in the wrong direction. A show championship, junior hunter, companion dog, agiliy and flyball is NOT versatile as in a versatile hunting dog. I stated this in my email. Maybe that's why I didn't hear anything back :?
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Postby Vom Britt » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:43 am

Finally received the rules on the AKC WT and as Dual posted and mentioned "they are what they are." Except for the trialers who need a close to 10 yd. retrieve for a title vs. close to 20 yds. for the hunt testers. :) :) Just kidding Tony, just kidding.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:09 am

I emailed the program coordinator my thoughts on what should be required for the 3 levels of versatile titles, which included a point sytem using NAVHDA, hunts tests, field trials, NSTRA and a show CH. I thought it was a great idea, however, it was being taken completely in the wrong direction. A show championship, junior hunter, companion dog, agiliy and flyball is NOT versatile as in a versatile hunting dog. I stated this in my email. Maybe that's why I didn't hear anything back


When such programs are formulated, the overriding concern is to be fair to all factions and interests in the club. The attempt was to give all a starting point and incentive to aspire to a "Versatile Dog". The priority is NOT to benefit the breed--as the result clearly shows.

Keep up what your doing KJ, from what I've been hearing and reading you're on the right track. Don't expect to hear much from the breed club or its shakers and movers-they have little in common with your agenda. Your challenge will be to find quality genepool -- measured on a meaningful scale and proven thoroughly on real game. Good luck.
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KJ

Postby gezer » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:26 am

KJ...looked at your website....good stuff....the breeding between Cypress and Backwoods sure shot wilson....is interesting...do not know much about Cypress....but Wilson is a Hunting Machine...I have a grandson of his....he is awesome.....waterwork is spot on....birdwork is super...and I have even run him on tracking and Blood.......very nice there also....let us know how this one does...cheers
Ron, handler of 27 meat dogs and proud owner of 2 chest freezers
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Postby Deb » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:00 pm

A show championship, junior hunter, companion dog, agility and flyball is NOT versatile as in a versatile hunting dog. I stated this in my email. Maybe that's why I didn't hear anything back


I wrote the chairman at approximately the same time as you KJ, and also suggested that there was a need to focus on hunting versatility vs. companion dog versatility. He did respond to me and one other person in the same email.

Basically it said that since we weren't members of the GWPCA it really wasn't our concern. Furthermore, if we were members of the GWPCA and if it were our concern – our opinion certainly wasn't in line with what the club membership wanted. The tone of the message was very terse and condescending as well as a bit ignorant considering I have been a member of the GWPCA for 12 years now. As fate would have it, I ended up seated at the same table as the Versatility Committee at the annual meeting at which time I did share my decidedly undiplomatic view of their program over dinner.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:34 pm

One of the biggest disappointments for many of the AKC breeds is that the official breed clubs don't shelter those that are actually doing the work of the breed. The AKC and those that would buy into the activities that are offered there are to blame.

The GWP is a good example. Yes -- there are a few folks withing the GWPCA that put performance first, field/water/point/search/retrieve with calm and purposeful demeanor. But, there are far more (a majority) who find most activities there of little purpose. The watering down of standards (the versatile program and water test come to mind) is laughable to those that are serious. It is sad that others would believe that their dogs are achieving anything of substance with such "tests".

The single best change that could be made for many of these breeds is that all dogs could not be shown in the ring until they had proven working skills--real skills, not a JH or CGC----real versatile skills--a UT, FT placement, SH all with water work and retreiving. Then after hip x-rays, genetic tests for the most common breed defects, dogs could compete in the show ring. That way, you wouldn't be looking at "beauty" wondering if there was any "function" and it would eliminate the show animals. What good is a beautiful show dog ... and stripping should not be allowed...you'd see all the "made" coats fall out of favor real fast.

I won't hold my breath.....
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