Pointing Labs allowed?

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

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Postby cjs180 » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:33 am

Any dog can be taught to point. To me it would not make any difference if Labs were able to enter pointer games, they would get mopped up.

I own a lab also and used to use her for duck hunting as well as upland game. My GWP would make her jealous in the duck marsh as well.
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Postby arrowbanshee » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:49 am

azbirdhunter wrote:
Grange wrote:
When I watch Tournament Hunter TV I think a good pointing lab could hold point as well as any of those pointing dogs.


I haven't seen on decent dog on that show. Talk about ridiculous. The birds rarely fly and when they do they have to kicked. The dogs only have to hold point for a three count. Wow, how impressive. Maybe thats a long time for a lab to hold "point." :lol: It's just another example of dogs being dumbed down by pen raised birds and tests. They run around in the field a while "hunting" glorified chickens and then are proclaimed to be 'champions." :roll:


I have a good friend who is a trainer and runs his dogs in PHU and NBDCA the latter of which is on Tournament Hunter TV and his pointer Rock is not what you are describing at all. I have watched the show with my friend and he gets upset that some of the dogs creep and dont hold point but to say you havent seen a decent dog on there is either a bunch of bull or you dont know what you are talking about. I do have personal experience with several dogs that have been on that show and because of that, I take serious offense to your comments!
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Postby azbirdhunter » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:09 pm

arrowbanshee wrote:
azbirdhunter wrote:
Grange wrote:
When I watch Tournament Hunter TV I think a good pointing lab could hold point as well as any of those pointing dogs.


I haven't seen on decent dog on that show. Talk about ridiculous. The birds rarely fly and when they do they have to kicked. The dogs only have to hold point for a three count. Wow, how impressive. Maybe thats a long time for a lab to hold "point." :lol: It's just another example of dogs being dumbed down by pen raised birds and tests. They run around in the field a while "hunting" glorified chickens and then are proclaimed to be 'champions." :roll:


I take serious offense to your comments!


Well I don't know what to tell you other than the dogs on the TV show seem to be poor examples of hunting dogs. They bump birds, barley point and when they do it isn't for long, good thing they only have to hold point for a three count :lol: . It's a game that has nothing to do with real hunting although they sure try to pass it off as that.
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Postby Tony » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:49 pm

Go ahead and let the labs run in the silly run-and-gun/tournament hunt type competitions. I have no doubt that they point as well as anything entered. :roll:

I can't believe anyone on this forum actually watches this stuff on TV. :shock:
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Postby Ryan » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:23 pm

Grange wrote:For a moderator you sure didn't shy away from a topic that could become quite heated.


I figured we are old enough to keep a cool on our tempers and talk about this.

To be honest I want to see one run a FDJ (jh) or Fd (SH) test.
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Postby Grange » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:39 pm

I don't mind topics that can get heated anyway so I was glad you posted it. I agree with you though, I think it would be fun to watch a pointing lab in an AKC trial. Not to compare it other dogs, but to see how well it would do against the standard.
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Postby mngsp » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:11 pm

I can't believe anyone on this forum actually watches this stuff on TV.


I need some humor in my life from time to time.
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Postby Huntntrain » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:09 pm

<< Only because these guys were joe six pack types like huntntrain and they got a lab and "they are retrievers so you don't need to do any training with them they were bred to be able to do that."

I know you weren't referring to me :roll:
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Tournament Hunter

Postby ckirsch » Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:30 pm

Az;

Whoa, you're pretty tough on those of us using pen-raised birds. Does your disdain for them include those used in field trials, NAVHDA tests, and shoot-to-retrieve trials? Pretty tough to run any type of test or competition on wild birds. Living and hunting in South Dakota, I can appreciate the challenge of wild birds, but our season only lasts three months. What about the other nine? We're not allowed to train dogs on wild birds for most of the spring and summer. Would it be better to just leave the dogs in the kennel from Jan through Sept?

Given your criticism of the show and the dogs competing there, I'm curious as to what changes would you make to the format. Keep in mind that you need to keep the runs fairly short in order to allow a high number of dogs to compete. Wild birds obviously can't be used. What would you do differently?

I've entered some similar local competitions, and while I agree that they are not entirely representative of actual hunting, they do provide some friendly competition and a chance to provide one's dogs with a little excitement in the off-season. I guess I'm not sure what the harm is.
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Re: Tournament Hunter

Postby azbirdhunter » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:12 am

ckirsch wrote:Az;

Whoa, you're pretty tough on those of us using pen-raised birds. Does your disdain for them include those used in field trials, NAVHDA tests, and shoot-to-retrieve trials? Pretty tough to run any type of test or competition on wild birds. Living and hunting in South Dakota, I can appreciate the challenge of wild birds, but our season only lasts three months. What about the other nine? We're not allowed to train dogs on wild birds for most of the spring and summer. Would it be better to just leave the dogs in the kennel from Jan through Sept?

Given your criticism of the show and the dogs competing there, I'm curious as to what changes would you make to the format. Keep in mind that you need to keep the runs fairly short in order to allow a high number of dogs to compete. Wild birds obviously can't be used. What would you do differently?

I've entered some similar local competitions, and while I agree that they are not entirely representative of actual hunting, they do provide some friendly competition and a chance to provide one's dogs with a little excitement in the off-season. I guess I'm not sure what the harm is.


Sorry, I can't answer your questions very well because I just don't care. I'm not intersted in most doggy games or ruining my dog by training with pen raised birds. So as far as what would I do to improve those silly games? Just take them off of television then all the test masters can keep their dirty little secret to themselves. I have a bird dog to hunt birds, wild birds period. Not to hunt glorified chickens or play games. It doesn't bother me that other people chose to do different things with their dogs or train differently. I just get tired of hearing some people brag about how great their dogs are when they can't even handle wild birds or regular hunting.
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Tournaments

Postby ckirsch » Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:49 pm

Tony;

It sounds like field trials are perhaps a little too blue-blooded for common folk like me. If participation in them is required for qualification as a gentlemen, I guess I fall somewhat short. It'll be tough, but I'll learn to live with it. The guy who dominates the local tournaments runs Vizslas that are completely steady and a joy to watch. I've hunted wild birds with him several times and am confident that many on this board would be impressed with his dogs. (The owner seemed like a gentleman to me, but I may have missed something.) It goes without saying that some of the dogs run are less than impressive, but I would guess it's that way with any dog games.

My point was to each his own, which I attempted to make without denegrating anyone else's choice of venue. If some guys don't care for any of the games, that's fine too. Good luck at your field trials. If they make you smile, that's all that matters.

Going back to the original PL thing, it would seem that the best way to expose them for being as bad as some think they are is to let them run. I am not a lab guy so I don't have a dog in this fight. Same with the retrieving games; if the lab guys have nothing to fear from versatiles they should not object to competing with them. Let 'em run, and let the chips fall where they may....
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Re: Tournaments

Postby parshal » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:50 am

ckirsch wrote:It goes without saying that some of the dogs run are less than impressive, but I would guess it's that way with any dog games.


That could not be more wrong with most of the dog games I've played. That would include AKC walking field trials, NAVHDA, NSTRA and NBDCA. The NBDCA dogs had less run than any of the other games. Three of the four I've listed have dogs with very nice run, almost too much for the average hunter.
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NBDCA

Postby ckirsch » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:40 am

Parshal;

I mentioned that while I have seen some solid dog work in the NBDCA events, and I admitted that some of the dogs entered in them were less than impressive, adding that less-than-stellar performances can probably be found in any type of trial or test. You say that I cound not be more wrong. Are you saying that every dog entered in the other venues you listed is top-notch? Is every NAVHDA dog a VC? Every trial dog an FC?

The shorter run of the NBDCA dogs is partially due a smaller piece of ground being hunted, and the fact that many of them are good ol' hunting dogs entered by, no surprise, hunters. You pointed that the other venues usually feature dogs with too much run for the average hunter.

While the challenges/ tournaments might lack some sophisitication, and admittedly have lower standards in some regards than the other organizations, the NBDCA events encourage more people to get into the bird dog hobby, and my guess is that some, like me, eventually graduate into tests and other events. Once again, I'm not sure how that can be a bad thing. Seems to me that it is good to have more people in our sport, and more people hunting.....
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Re: NBDCA

Postby parshal » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:06 pm

ckirsch wrote:You say that I cound not be more wrong. Are you saying that every dog entered in the other venues you listed is top-notch? Is every NAVHDA dog a VC? Every trial dog an FC?


The VC or FC is not the end all be all of bird dogs and I'm not saying that all dogs entered are top notch. I'm saying many/most, with the exception of NBDCA, have nice run. I was replying specifically to this
It goes without saying that some of the dogs run are less than impressive, but I would guess it's that way with any dog games.


Most importantly the part that's in bold. The dog games have their share of duds. I think what caught me was it sounded like you were saying that the games had a lot of dogs with less impressive run. That's what I was refuting. I may have misunderstood your post.

The shorter run of the NBDCA dogs is partially due a smaller piece of ground being hunted, and the fact that many of them are good ol' hunting dogs entered by, no surprise, hunters. You pointed that the other venues usually feature dogs with too much run for the average hunter.

While the challenges/ tournaments might lack some sophisitication, and admittedly have lower standards in some regards than the other organizations, the NBDCA events encourage more people to get into the bird dog hobby, and my guess is that some, like me, eventually graduate into tests and other events. Once again, I'm not sure how that can be a bad thing. Seems to me that it is good to have more people in our sport, and more people hunting.....


I agree.
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