What to do..

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

What to do..

Postby Napoleon » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:38 pm

Hunting pheasants in Southeastern Wisconsin is like shooting fish in a barrell. There is not a lot of places you can go without it being "put and take" on public grounds.

Having hunted with a springer and a golden for the past 10 years I got use to the dogs getting a hold of a hot scent and more than not having them chase up a rooster after it attempted to run into the next county. As long as I kept up it usually made for an easy shot.

My GWP is doing the same thing. It appears to me that she is not getting any opportunity to point because the birds are running like mad. So far I have not been shooting, just calling the dog back to where the bird was flushed and simulating a point.

What do you do? These birds obviously are not going to stop and eventually the dog gets close enough that they fly. I'm aftraid that the dog is going to get confused. In fact I think its already starting to happen. This morning she jumped 3 birds, all runners, after that she seem to lose motivation. Yesterday - 2 hens did the same thing to her.
Napoleon
Started
Started
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Postby chicago0517 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:28 pm

how old is the GWP?

Remote launcher training?
chicago0517
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby Napoleon » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:32 pm

Dog is about a year old.

All training was done with a remote launcher.

The dog has pointed pheasants and held steady.

What I am seeing from other pointing breeds is very little pointing in these situations. The birds are running and the dog end s up chasing. Does the seasoned proffesional shoot under these circumstances?

Is the dog expected to point. IMO these birds will flush befor the dog can point them.
Napoleon
Started
Started
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Postby parshal » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:50 pm

I shoot them. As long as the dog was trying to work the bird and isn't acting dishonest. What you describe is quite common with late season pheasants in the wild. Once you get to late season it's not uncommon for only one in three shot roosters to be pointed.
User avatar
parshal
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:18 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby vman » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:06 pm

It is very hard to try and give a solid evaluation on a computer. But I will make a couple comments. First off make sure the dog has proven its pointing abilities on liberated birds such as quail and chuckar. Now you know the dog has pointing instinct and it knows what is expected.
Take the dog pheasant hunting alone. A pheasant dog has two choices when a pheasant runs,, either speed up or slow down. It sounds like your dog is speeding up. Most common mistake. It will have to learn on its own to slow down and work the scent, be it ground scent or air scent. The dog will soon learn that if it slows down and is careful he can point that bird. IF he busts the bird you DO NOT SHOOT THE BIRD. Not at this time. Once the dog has had perhaps 100 wild birds shot over its points you may be able to get away with shooting pushed birds, but if the dog has any intelligence he knows that the birds are to be pointed and anything less is a screw up on his part. He has to have manners on wild birds, something that is really not required on liberated game or releases.
Secondly,, examine what you are doing when the dog is getting birdy and points. What are you doing and where are you at in regards to the dog. Once the dog points how do you go about the flush? Do you make an arc to the side of the dog and putting the bird inbetween you and the dog? Or are you walking up behind and then beside the dog to make the flush?
If you are walking up from behind, you are the reason the birds are running, not the dog. Those birds are more scared of you than the dog. Take the human element out of the picture if you can. It takes a team to be proficient at wild roosters. keep taking the dog hunting and he will figure out how to handle them. He is just lacking manners, do not reward him for it. If by chance he handles a hen and allows you to flush it, I know you can`t shoot the bird but you can fire the gun. Give him praise and hope the next one is a rooster.
http://www.rockwoodkennels.net
http://www.dogtra-ecollars.net

Home of the Versatile Vizsla

Northern Lights Tricky Dick UT PZ2 198pts
Rockwoods Csouarberki Estike UT PZ1 201pts.
Rockwoods Beretta UT PZ1 193pts.
Rockwoods Kivalo Maverick UT PZ1 196 pts.
VC Rockwoods Kivalo Supertramp UT PZ1 204 pts
VC Rockwoods Kivalo Gunsmoke UT PZ1 204 pts.
FC Rockwoods Little Nutsy 24months 28days
User avatar
vman
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:13 am
Location: WI

Postby Napoleon » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:41 pm

Vman

Pretty much what I figured. So far I have taken her out alone.

Its been a long time since I hunted over pointers, but when the dog gets birdy , she speeds up and I let her go.

My general rule of thumb is not to interfere, let the dog point the bird then move around in front of her so the bird is between her an I. This season she pointed and remained steady twice, where I was able to shoot and twice where the she went on point and the bird flushed the instant she froze up. Each time I shot those birds.

She also ran down 2 cripples, It seems to me that after these 2 cases she quit pointing.

I guess the question now is how to get the dog to slow up on birds.
Napoleon
Started
Started
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Postby vman » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:24 pm

twice where the she went on point and the bird flushed the instant she froze up. Each time I shot those birds.



The way it is written it would be my understanding that the last two birds shot were the birds from above. Am I correct? I will assume so. You just taught her that if she gets the birds in the air, you will shoot them. She probably should have pointed them sooner. You need to look at those situations, was she downwind, upwind, crosswind? It takes a very experienced dog too point downwind. IF the bird was upwind, the dog just got too close,{manners} if it was a crosswind which I prefer, did she turn into and road in? Or did she hit the brakes as soon as she made scent? It is probably water over the dam. Nobody would expect you to remember. But do use the winds in the future. It is the first thing I do when I get out of the vehicle.
She also ran down 2 cripples, It seems to me that after these 2 cases she quit pointing.


Typically cripples smell different than unshot birds.{blood} I would not worry too much about that. Just keep hunting her and get her into as many wild birds as possible. Don`t hesitate to get the dog into some Ruffed grouse, They are very good teachers also.
As for her slowing down that is somthing that the birds will need to teach her.{respect + manners} Just don`t reward her for flushes and show her you are disappointed in her when she does, she will figure it out. It will not be easy for you, but well worth it, as you will have many years to fill the game bag once she figures it out.
http://www.rockwoodkennels.net
http://www.dogtra-ecollars.net

Home of the Versatile Vizsla

Northern Lights Tricky Dick UT PZ2 198pts
Rockwoods Csouarberki Estike UT PZ1 201pts.
Rockwoods Beretta UT PZ1 193pts.
Rockwoods Kivalo Maverick UT PZ1 196 pts.
VC Rockwoods Kivalo Supertramp UT PZ1 204 pts
VC Rockwoods Kivalo Gunsmoke UT PZ1 204 pts.
FC Rockwoods Little Nutsy 24months 28days
User avatar
vman
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 523
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 10:13 am
Location: WI

Postby Hunters Edge » Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:37 pm

I would say your going to back up and train. Instead of letting the dog creep or get close to the traps you need to watch the dog when it gets scent and moves in pop birds but of course do not shoot I would get a hold of someone you know or a friend of a friend that have pigeons and start this drill.

If you have snow I dig out an area to hide the traps and usually will start getting points 30 to 50 yards. You need to eduacate the dog on when to stop and sometimes or some birds way back. This drill should have been discussed with you or you should have known about this prior to working the dog on wild birds. Pen reared birds will allow leeway or let the dog get on top of it but wild birds will not and this had to be taught prior to hunting. Whats unfortunate is the flash points and you shooting them along with catching crips. Now if you seen them run and gave your dog the command used for fetch it should not matter but if it just ran ahead likie your saying and caught the bird yes it will set you back.

The training mentioned above should put your dog back to where you need to be Good Luck
Hunters Edge Kennel where Versatile Champions are born. Call on expected whelped dates or breedings, hunters only, please.
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:05 pm

I personally think she's doing great for a one year old dog. If you NEVER shoot a bird that she doesn't point and you don't flush, the birds will teach her how to handle them. Vman is right on. If she's tracking a runner into the wind, that's one thing. But if she's tracking them downwind, what chance does she have?
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Hunters Edge » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:29 pm

If it was good enough he would not be posting for help or assistance.

Second you can have dogs that are hard headed and keep running birds up because wild birds are infrequent compared to setting up situations in training so the learning curve is quicker and less frustrations in the field.

Also even when running down wind the dog should not be running where the handler has to run to keep up but slow real down and not what we call roading.

PS. Once you get the dog staying back on the point you also can run scent trails to a bird in a launcher and then make sure the dog stays back once he gets close enough this also will help but first get the dog to stay back his problem is he wants to get to close and pushes the bird to run then runs it up would be my guess from what has been written in the post so far.
Hunters Edge Kennel where Versatile Champions are born. Call on expected whelped dates or breedings, hunters only, please.
User avatar
Hunters Edge
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: Northern, Michigan

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:29 pm

Shoot birds the dog does NOT bust. Don't shoot any bird the dog forces up-or should have pointed and you can't do any harm.

The first two mature seasons (ages 1 1/2 and 2 1/2) are NOT about shooting birds but about conditioning your dog. If you need to walk a lot without shooting, then you do it. A few gawdy roosters are not as important.
DrahtsundBraats
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:41 am

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:37 pm

Nice post Huntersedge.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Napoleon » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:37 pm

First off, Thanks to everyone who was good enough to reply.

My experience since I posted the question is that I chose not to shoot anything unless the dog pointed the bird was steady till flush. I followed this path religiously over the past month. THe results so far have been mixed. While she still bumps birds, she has started pointing more.

Fortunately, for the dog, I have managed to shoot everything she pointed so she is reaping the rewards of our hunt. Overall she has improved, and with steady training over the winter I expect more consistent pointing next year.

She is only 18 months, and this is her 1st full season. Her biggest problem is that I expect too much at an early age.
Napoleon
Started
Started
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:52 pm

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:07 pm

Napoleon:

Here's a idea as it's working for me right now. First, teach the dog to whoa with the tone feature on the e-collar. Use the tone in the field so you don't have to speak to the dog. Use a couple of short tones to indicate whoa and a very long one to teach come.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7296
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon


Return to (All Breed) Kennel Clubs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest