Field Trials ;)

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

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Postby larue » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:20 pm

tony,I myself want the mythical shooting dog..
In the gsp world it takes alot of power to place at the nationals.
As long as you brought up the gundog championships,Dunfur's joe obvious was the winner over the wirehair you speak of.
According to what greg dixon told me,simon just blew the doors off of everone else,he was unbeatable after his first run,and then he ran his 2nd time even better.
I can very easily see his brains and his power his pup eva that I own.


mngsp,the best would be to have one of each,a shooting dog for the home run,and a nice gundog for the consistancy.
I have had alot of fun with my medium gundog max,who ever so often is a big gundog.In a few years I will tell you how much fun a shooting dog is,when eva has ran awhile.
I think I will run max at your spring trial I will be judgeing at.Maybe max will remember kelly farms from his invitational run there.
I have not ran him much,but he still wants to go.
This has been a fun discussion,ut we are probably confusing the poster more than helping him,Now to really confuse him,lets talk about judgeing quirks,like rabbits!
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Postby gohntng » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:40 pm

larue wrote:I am not saying a 100 yard derby dog cannot win,you can and will have alot of fun with such a pup,with alot of ribbons and wins,but if a all age or shooting dog pup shows up,and gets around,with a bird, do not be surprised if you do not win.


Larue, I might have missd something here, but I definetly wouldn't enter a dog with that limited of range in Derby. I don't think Tony had that range in mind. I hope not, I wouldn't enter a pup in puppy, with that limited of range.
I won't have a AA dog either. I have no place to run or train such a dog. I hunted briefly with such a dog, within 10 minutes she was gone. Two times it was 3 days before someone found her. It wasn't pleasant at all.
The advise I read given here is having a dog that runs to the front, searches hopefully hard, with use of the nose and intelligence. I haven't seen yardage mentioned.
I would guess a derby dog at 1 year old would be running and casting out 300 to 500 yards. I don't think a GWP would stay out there without being pushed. All mine come back to check in.
Another question. When running in a new territory, or trial, is it common to have a young derby dog to stay close in, until it feels more comfortable with it's surroundings before it casts out?
Great reading, Thanks. Marvin.
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Postby Tony » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:05 pm

I won't have a AA dog either. I have no place to run or train such a dog. I hunted briefly with such a dog, within 10 minutes she was gone. Two times it was 3 days before someone found her. It wasn't pleasant at all.


You are confusing All Age with Run Off; there is a difference.

I would guess a derby dog at 1 year old would be running and casting out 300 to 500 yards. I don't think a GWP would stay out there without being pushed. All mine come back to check in.

Your dogs are coming back to check in because you don't discourage it. By allowing them to come back, they think it is okay.

Another question. When running in a new territory, or trial, is it common to have a young derby dog to stay close in, until it feels more comfortable with it's surroundings before it casts out?

A Derby dog only has 20 minutes to prove itself. If it waits until it feels comfortable, it probably won't be in the money.
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Postby Tony » Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:13 pm

larue,

Please define the mythical shooting dog.

How many braces have you seen Joe run? Is he in the money 20% of the time or 95%?
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Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:12 am

gohntng wrote: I won't have a AA dog either. I have no place to run or train such a dog. I hunted briefly with such a dog, within 10 minutes she was gone. Two times it was 3 days before someone found her. It wasn't pleasant at all.


Sorry, but what you are describing is in no way, shape or form an AA dog.
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Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:15 am

Tony wrote:How many braces have you seen Joe run? Is he in the money 20% of the time or 95%?


I have judged Joe twice. I placed him twice.
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Postby alan » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:22 pm

I'm tossing ideas of breeding a a strong Grief bred bitch to Joe Obvious in '06. Tell me a bit more about him...what are his strong suits and where do you think he is weak?

Maybe best for you guys that know the dog first hand to PM me with whatever you know bout him.

thanx
Breed For Run, Train For Range
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Postby gohntng » Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:17 pm

slistoe wrote:
gohntng wrote: I won't have a AA dog either. I have no place to run or train such a dog. I hunted briefly with such a dog, within 10 minutes she was gone. Two times it was 3 days before someone found her. It wasn't pleasant at all.


Sorry, but what you are describing is in no way, shape or form an AA dog.


Tony and slistoe.
You are correct in I don't know what an AA dog is. The dog I'm referring too is an English Pointer out of Strike I believe. She hits the horizon and we're on foot.
It seems to me an AA does just that, we just don't follow with horses.
I might not completely understand this, but why the scout in a trial? Isn't that what he does, find that dog?
Yup, I'm confused, no wonder I don't want one... :lol: :wink:

Tony, I was asking about a derby dog staying close in a run, if that was normal. I take that as a no.
You also mention discourage a dog coming back. Could you explain, I don't pet my dogs when they come back when I'm out. I definently don't punish a dog that returns. Haven't seen wires that could take the discouragement yet.

Larue.
As far as confusing me, no way!! :roll: Just teasing.
You throw in a SD now :roll: , and chasing rabbits. I have that one down pat.

That was one direction I was trying to get to, busted birds, breaking point, and chasing rabbits even. DQ'd or lost points?
It's rainy and cold here, if you guys have the time, I'm ready to read.

alan, I appreciate your comments as a judge. It's not often to get this type of information about what might be expected before you have ran several times.
What maybe some trialers don't realize, new blood in a form of entrants might not be a bad idea. You have to remember, some people would never own a FT dog. Or is it we don't know what a quality dog it really is.
Marvin..
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Postby larue » Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:17 pm

tony,my mythical shooting dog is a dog who can win at eagle,and then at booneville,and at eureka.A dog who can beat any competition,yet it still goes with me,and is a birddog.
A huge dog when the grounds allow it,yet a dog who can get around in a small course.
As far as simon,I can say this,I have watched him three times in eureka,
this year at the am championship he was given an honorable mention,as he had two unproductives in his 2nd seris.He would have pushed the stake without the unproductives
I can say this also,he was the number one dog in the gspca in the limited stakes I think,the last time I looked.So he must have some consistancy.

gohntng,a derby dog cannot make a breach of manners,certainly any activity that detracts from its purpose,of findig birds will hurt the dog.
The only real reason to be picked up in a derby would be for intimidation
or bad interferince with your bracemate.


alan,I would give dan hoke a call,he can tell you alot about simon.
I can say this,he is very intense,and according to dan,a birddog.
I can also say he is a very friendly dog,that I have personally approached on a stakeout,along with his half brother where you ben.
Both dogs just wanted to be petted,no fear,no aggression.
I can also say tha the pup I own out of him is going to be something special,and she is very,very smart.
Here is simon's pic from dan's websiteImage
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Postby slistoe » Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:40 am

gohntng wrote:
slistoe wrote:
gohntng wrote: I won't have a AA dog either. I have no place to run or train such a dog. I hunted briefly with such a dog, within 10 minutes she was gone. Two times it was 3 days before someone found her. It wasn't pleasant at all.


Sorry, but what you are describing is in no way, shape or form an AA dog.


Tony and slistoe.
You are correct in I don't know what an AA dog is. The dog I'm referring too is an English Pointer out of Strike I believe. She hits the horizon and we're on foot.
It seems to me an AA does just that, we just don't follow with horses.
I might not completely understand this, but why the scout in a trial? Isn't that what he does, find that dog?
Yup, I'm confused, no wonder I don't want one... :lol: :wink:


You did get one thing right - given the right field and conditions an AA dog will hit the horizon in pretty short order. The problem is, just like most others who want a reason to dislike AA dogs, is that you ignore the other end of the equation which is equally important. A couple of oft repeated sayings come to mind here. "No one ever won with a lost dog" and "You can't judge what you can't see". In Am. Fld. stakes the dog cannot be out of judgement for more than 1/3 the stake. If you cannot show the dog to the judge every 20 min. you are out of the running in a 1 hour stake. Since many trials run on weekends with 1/2 hour stakes, for practical purposes you must be able to show your dog to the judge at least every 10 minutes. If you are running in CKC/AKC 1/2 hour stakes the time becomes 5 min. If the dog stays gone for longer than that it will not be a competitive trial dog regardless of the designation. It is also required that the dog be shown at the end of time - regardless if that is 10 minutes or 30 seconds since he was last seen. The other thing about a trial is that the handler is compelled to follow a set course. Not only must the dog show at regular intervals, he must show on the course and to the front. If he shows to the side or (heaven forbid) behind, he will not be competitive. Since the dog does not read maps or know the course layout they must become particularly adept at keeping track of where you are, AND where you will be going, then making logical deductions of where to hunt based on that information. Hunting willy, nilly wherever the cover goes is not good enough to win a trial. When you consider this requirement with the fact that a good AA dog will be working at ranges approaching 1/2 mile or more at times you will appreciate the real talent that these dogs possess. Sometimes a scout is required to "assist" them with this daunting task.
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Postby slistoe » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:04 am

By the way, whether you are on foot or on horses makes no difference in the requirement for the dog to show to the front.
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Postby gohntng » Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:33 pm

[quote="slistoe The other thing about a trial is that the handler is compelled to follow a set course. Not only must the dog show at regular intervals, he must show on the course and to the front. If he shows to the side or (heaven forbid) behind, he will not be competitive. [/quote]

Slistoe.

Now that is new to me, I better have a talk with my dogs about the coming in from behind tracking back to me.

When the course has been ran, do you heel the dog behind the horse, or put them on a lead?

Thanks, Marvin.
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Postby Tony » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:00 pm

When the course has been ran, do you heel the dog behind the horse, or put them on a lead?

A check cord with a roading harness works best, but you can heel the dog if you want. Sometimes I just yank the dog up onto the horse and she rides with me back to camp.
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Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:39 am

gohntng wrote: When the course has been ran, do you heel the dog behind the horse, or put them on a lead?

Thanks, Marvin.


Are we still talking derby dogs???? Personally, after a mere half hour with a good derby dog I just hope like h*** I can make them quit long enough I can get a rope on them.

Snap a check cord on them and either walk or ride home. Some folks like to carry the dog on the horse because either they or the dog are not familiar with roading from a horse. Once your time is up it is a matter of respect for the fellow competitors and judges to ensure that your dog does nothing to disturb further game, other dogs or in any other way interfere with the subsequent braces being run. I have been known to heel my more reliable adult dogs off the course, but with a check cord on their collar dragging so I can regain quick and positive control should anything go amiss - it is irresponsible to do otherwise.
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Postby slistoe » Fri Dec 30, 2005 1:40 am

gohntng wrote:
slistoe wrote: The other thing about a trial is that the handler is compelled to follow a set course. Not only must the dog show at regular intervals, he must show on the course and to the front. If he shows to the side or (heaven forbid) behind, he will not be competitive.


Slistoe.

Now that is new to me, I better have a talk with my dogs about the coming in from behind tracking back to me.


I am not sure if you are being facetious or not, but I will say that any dog can track down its owner when it gets waylaid, but the good dogs usually don't need to.
Last edited by slistoe on Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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