Field Trials ;)

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Field Trials ;)

Postby gohntng » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:16 pm

I have looked but don't seem to find any place that discusses what a dog has to do to compete in a trial.
For instance, what does a puppy have to do during it's run to compete?
Derby, now what?
Is there a book or article on what the dog has to do?

Thanks, Marvin. 8)
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Postby mngsp » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:24 am

Marvin

Here is a link to the AKC Rules and Standard Procedures for Field Trials



http://www.akc.org/rules/field_trial_pointing_breeds.cfm

This is a good place to start, but nothing can help you more is to find someone to go with you to a few trials and watch and talk with other people.

The AKC also has a calendar of events page that is constantly updating and can show you where when local trials will be held. Here is that link....

http://www.akc.org/events/search/

Hope this helps get you headed the right way.
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Postby gohntng » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:49 pm

mngsp.
Thanks for the response, I was looking for what the dog has to do to compete.
The last trial I attended, you could only watch the dogs for about a couple minutes. That's all it took for them to leave the country.
I was going to breed a female GSP to Lancer D from Boise, and a pup running at the trial was from him.
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Postby slistoe » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:20 am

The most important thing for a puppy to be able to compete is for that puppy to have an owner who is willing to enter him and run him in a trial. After the owner has run his pup in a few trails, followed all the other braces of pups in that entire trial, and then listened carefully to the placements that were given, he will understand much better what is required of his own pup to compete. (In other words, no one ever went wrong by running their dog.)

In short when I judge I am looking for a pup with the potential to be a competitive adult dog. Things that are the result of training are not as much importance as the things that a dog must do themselves by virtue of the blessings of genetics. Desire to hunt is high on the priority list. Stamina and heart are excellent virtues. A pup that knows where the front is without being controlled, that knows where to look instead of running aimlessly, that knows how to work the wind and gives the impression that the only important thing is the hunt - nothing else matters, those are the pups that will distinguish themselves.

Control, obedience, manners around game, etc. are all man made items that are overlaid onto the basic genetic material and do nothing to show the true virtue contained in a puppy.
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Postby mngsp » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:50 am

Slistoe

Very good informative post, should help Marvin out.

Another thing besides watching all the braces is to after placements are announced politely ask the judges if they would care to explain what they saw. Most judges I have found are more than willing to take some time and discuss the stake with a handler. This is always a very valuable education.
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Postby gohntng » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:21 pm

Slistoe.
Thanks, that's more what I wanted to know.
I don't usually go to just have fun at anything. If I go, it's to do the best my dogs can do at that day. Then I just say I had fun! :D
So in pup, they just hunt with intelligence.
In Derby, does training come into the equation. Are they broke to flush, or shot? Then do you cast them in a different direction, or can they chase and catch. I probably wouldn't run in puppy, skip to derby.
I have a female that should give me a few nice pups to start that game this next year. If they have the moms enthusiasm, point, and nose.
Thanks again, Marvin.
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Postby slistoe » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:43 am

If you never run a dog you will never know whether you know anything or not. There is no harm in running for the purpose of learning - it is a much more worthwhile endeavor than trying to run to show off what you know - and having it become evident. This truly is a "learn by doing" type of activity.

I doubt that anyone ever entered a dog with the expectation of doing less than they were capable of, nor did anyone ever blow the whistle on their dog without some faint hope that they may be able to win the whole thing, but if you cannot have fun when losing this is not a sport to start in - even the very best dogs in the game lose more than they win.

In derby the dog must demonstrate that they will point. Some of the reckless abandon of puppyhood will be gone for a more focused and intelligent search. The spit and polish of a finished dog is not yet there - manners on birds is not required, handling may be a little rough around the edges, but the fire in the belly is heightened to the extreme. The desire for the hunt and birds is unquencheable.
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Postby gohntng » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:35 pm

slistoe wrote:If you never run a dog you will never know whether you know anything or not. There is no harm in running for the purpose of learning - it is a much more worthwhile endeavor than trying to run to show off what you know - and having it become evident. This truly is a "learn by doing" type of activity.


Yes I agree. That is why I asked in this thread, to have at least some idea.
Thanks for all your advice, I like to play the game my dogs are trained for. I have no want of an "ALL AGE" dog though.
This next pup I have should have the desire, just let it roll.. :D
MArvin..
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Postby slistoe » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:53 pm

Have fun with it.
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Postby larue » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:44 am

the one word that best describes a puppy/derby dog is "POWER".
An all age pup might not be for everyne but it is what is going to win if you can get it around.
slistoe is correct in his application,but range is goingto play a big part in
how well your pup does.
juvenile stakes are about potential,and independance is something you
cannot add to a pup,so a big running pup is looked at as haveing more potential,when compared to a close working pup.
Certainly judges,grounds ect play into the actual judgeing.
If you get a pup who really runs big,but when you see him,he is hunting as
slistoe stated,you will have a winner.
keep you rpup foward,keep him on edges,and you will have fun.
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Postby alan » Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:08 pm

Larue,

I think we should define "Power" a little differently. In today's world several of our judges cannot tell the difference between big run and run off and that's a fact. Personally, I think a dog must be judged on how it hunts the country and more importantly how it hunts "to" the country. In other words...range, i.e. big run has little to do with the end result IMHO.
Breed For Run, Train For Range
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Postby mngsp » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:37 pm

"Power" to me is how I see a dog attack a course. A fast running dog that trail runs or just blows over the horizon missing obvious objectives is a useless dog in my book.

A hard moving dog that hunts as if his life depends on it, hitting every objective, not wasting any energy, digs into heavy cover, a dog I know that will produce birds for the gun no matter what it takes.
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Postby gohntng » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:40 pm

mngsp wrote:"Power" to me is how I see a dog attack a course. A fast running dog that trail runs or just blows over the horizon missing obvious objectives is a useless dog in my book.


This statemen hits the mark why I sold my last dog at two years old. Ran out huge, but my other dogs were hitting the areas that had birds. They found more birds than that dog did lineing out to the horizon. They covered to the side and hit objectives, not just reaching for the farthest ridge half a mile out.
I'd rather FT a dog that handles to the sides as my male, 100 to 200 yards to the side, making an occasional swing out to the front 500 yards out.
I will make this more clear, this is in an area you can see that far. Not in heavy cover. He adjusts to a close range in thicker cover as I grouse hunt in a forest.
I'll add a picture of a 5 month old pup, circled, from KJ, that is out 500 yards. He followed my male out, but is staying out, searching.
As you can see, you can see a long ways from where I stand.

Image
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Postby alan » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:05 am

gohntng

To go back and answer the original question: What does a pup need to do to compete?

Simply put...A pup must show desire for the hunt. He must not be bird shy, cover shy or gun shy. As a judge I give little credence to All Age or Gun Dog run or potential for such in a puppy stake. Matter of fact…if I see a pup with his ears laid back heading for the horizon I am more apt to ask why he is running so big than I am to be impressed by how he is running. And believe me I would be asking myself throughout the brace if that pup is running to hunt or running to get away from pressure. Like most, I like to see a pup hit the objectives and hunt the cover on the down wind side, but IMO even that is not of primary importance at this stage. I will say that the pup that hunts the cover properly is desired over one that doesn't, but again, I don’t find it of major importance in a puppy stake if the pup does not do so consistently. Let me qualify that by saying that IMO most “pupsâ€
Breed For Run, Train For Range
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Postby gohntng » Sat Dec 24, 2005 7:00 pm

alan.
Than-you very much for the time you took to reply.
I hate to be a pain, but what about derby?
I like to be somewhat prepared at anything I do. My fun is to train, or play in the field in the way it would help a dog compete somewhat at what ever game we try.
In derby I'd have a pup whoa trained enough to stay to flush one day maybe not another day. It might point and then take a bird out. Now what, am I done? If the pup holds point, I blank the bird and it stays, do I now send it in another direction of the flush and it has to go that way?
Thanks again for your time.
Marvin.
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