SH or MH?

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SH or MH?

Postby anne » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:37 pm

I have a Weim that I'd like to run in SH and/or MH. She has her JH, NAVHDA NA I, and broke dog placements in field trials. We mostly field trial with our other dogs so I am not yet totally clear on hunt test (unwritten) rules.... I've contemplated skipping SH but am wondering if there is some value in it, especially for an inexperienced handler such as myself (my other half usually runs the dogs). The other issue is that her backing is weak. She's very biddable so a back in a SH test would probably not be an issue as - if I understand this correctly (and I've gotten conflicting opinions on this) - you can whoa the dog into a back. She's steady, but would a quiet "whoa" command be acceptable in MH? Could I quietly whoa her into a back in MH? I guess my question is just how much talking is really allowed in MH?
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Postby Mn John » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:51 pm

Anne:

I am in the same spot few my bitch. Her backing isn't up to MH standards, meaning she needs a little Whoa every once ina while, and that is enough to DQ her in Masters. She does a good job recgonizing the other dog on point and slows down, but does not alwasy stop at that point and needs the whoa. In our general area( MN ) any verbal command to regrading backing on steadiness is most likely going to cause you to fail. I am going to run her in Senior to support our local club but that is the limit. She'll be ready in the spring for masters.
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Postby aktyson » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:40 pm

Hi Anne,

Its Anne from WA. I've run both SH and MH tests. I asked a judge up here the question about how much verbal help is allowed and she told me one quiet command is acceptable after the dog has already established the back or the point. Until Indy has learned how to honor on her own I'd stick with senior. In senior you can whoa them after they acknowledge the pointing dog and can collar them through the working of the bird.

Anne
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Postby anne » Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:25 pm

Thanks John and Anne!
She's almost ready for master then but not quite. Sounds like they are pretty serious about very minimal talking. I really don't need to talk much to her in general, it's just the backing that I'm not feeling confident about. More training then!! We're training this weekend with Lori and her crew, good opportunity for backing training.
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Postby larue » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:31 am

I think the dog has to make an ackowledgement,or to start to back at least,even in the sh.In the mh,I would not say a word other than fetch,heel.You cannot help a dog at all in mh,to establish the honor.
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Postby anne » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:52 pm

Thought I would update...
Got one SH leg. I know for sure that the dog suffered due to the handler (me!) but it has been a good experience for me. Also I should have entered her earlier, there is a lot more talking allowed than I thought. And... wouldn't you know it, the thing I was most worried about, backing, hasn't been the main problem. I scratched her yesterday because she started breaking after some pressure situations (bracemate running circles around her instead of backing, bird flushing in her face, etc. Bad luck but she needs to learn to deal with it) and I would rather her not start to pick up bad habits since I want to get a MH on her.
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SH or MH?

Postby Steve Anker » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:51 am

Greetings,

Congratulations on the Q's,

A quick reply to this thread-

Speaking as a Hunt Test/FT/Handler/Judge/Trainer,
my standard line is- Try to be the best dog in the Test level you are running. If you feel you're not ready for the next level than you're Not.
All the training we put in to the dogs, all the traveling, expenses, frustrations, ultimately should result in a Q. If you want to GAMBLE, go to VEGAS. A sure thing is a dog well trained putting on a good performance.
Longshots should be reserved for the Casinos. Don't be that guy/gal-the one whom we have all been braced with- the one with the wild out of control dog working so hard to DQ US. May sound hardline, (just my personal view) but you always remember the good runs, the DQ's just make for sour grapes.
SH vs. MH- Senior Hunter is a middle of the road stake, a good hunting dog with clean birdwork and a backing skill can Q. Master Hunter is a bit different, I look at it as a performance, a display. Fulfilling the requirements are the basis of the Q, but the entire run should be a pleasant hunt for birds with respect of the bracemate.

I have a reproduced picture in my office, of a breakaway shot at the National Championship, with the following text I added below-

How do you get to the AMEs PLANTATION?
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

When you're ready... you will know.
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Postby anne » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:31 pm

Thanks Steve.
I wanted to run her dead broke in SH and was surprised that she started breaking on me. So I know I need to put in some training time with her because she'll run dead broke for her usual handler (my boyfriend). He criticized my handling and timing big time. ("What are you doing looking at the bird? Watch your dog!" etc. LOL. I have to laugh because I know I should be doing that but keep doing the wrong thing.) I am working with her now and think things are going pretty well. She's being hunted over wild quail now which is really putting the pressure on her to hold steady but I'm really pleased with how she is progressing and while she is a much shorter running dog than my FC, working with her is a lot easier for a newbie like me. I will finish up the SH title and then polish her up for MH. I'm realizing more and more that it's handler education just as much as dog education.
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Hunt Testing

Postby Steve Anker » Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:27 pm

Greetings Anne,

Happy Holidays,

'just read your post,
Sounds like you have a great grasp on things, training wise.
Didn't mean to sound hardline, generally I encourage new folks to run HT's in all levels at first. The experience you gain at the different levels is priceless. Quickly you'll come to speed and realize just what work you need to do to Q. Handling dogs in Tests/Trials gets easier each time out,
just remember in a hunt test you are there to qualify. Do what you can to avoid any bad setups, swing wide for a good clean shot at the honor,
flush birds away from your dogs face, and keep your dog a buffer distance from the bracemate, things happen quick. Up in the saddle Judging we see things from an advantageous view, it always comes in handy when we run dogs.

Train hard, be prepared, focus on realistic goals, keep your dog clean around the course, and try to have some fun out there,

it'll keep you in the Orange and Blue satins.

Best of Luck
Last edited by Steve Anker on Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby anne » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Steve,
Thanks again. I agree, I should have started at the Junior level, but that is well behind us know. I do have a 9 month old pup that I could run now but I don't want her catching birds in an uncontrolled situation so am skipping Junior all together.
I guess I just have to learn that hard way <g> In fact, my first handling experience was running a puppy I didn't know anything about in a field trial and then running my girl in a broke dog stake (She got a 2nd!).
I started show handling with a 2 year old dog that didn't know anything either.
Somehow I tend to do things all together backwards! LOL
Anne
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Postby IndyGSP » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:37 pm

Well this looks like a good place to ask my question about SR honoring rules. Alot of judges say they want to see they dog acknowledge the point and then you can give verbal command, but the rules state as follows -

In Senior, the Regulations state that the handler may
give a dog a verbal command to honor but the dog
must see or acknowledge that its bracemate is on point
before it has been cautioned to honor. A dog cannot be
heeled into its honor. Once the dog has established its
honor, the handler may collar the dog to prevent interference
with the pointing dog when the bird is flushed.
But, remember, the dog must clearly demonstrate it is
honoring before it can be collared.

I guess I am confused on this please help.
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Postby terryg » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:29 pm

IndyGSP wrote:Well this looks like a good place to ask my question about SR honoring rules. Alot of judges say they want to see they dog acknowledge the point and then you can give verbal command, but the rules state as follows -

In Senior, the Regulations state that the handler may
give a dog a verbal command to honor but the dog
must see or acknowledge that its bracemate is on point
before it has been cautioned to honor.
A dog cannot be
heeled into its honor. Once the dog has established its
honor, the handler may collar the dog to prevent interference
with the pointing dog when the bird is flushed.
But, remember, the dog must clearly demonstrate it is
honoring before it can be collared.

I guess I am confused on this please help.


a really old thread but the question is good. don't be afraid to post a new one as these old ones may get overlooked.

an honor is just that . honoring the other dogs position on point.

some dogs not well versed in the honor want to run close or continue closing the distance after the other dog has gone on point. they know he has a bird and want to get to it themselves.

the dog can only honor by either seeing the other dog point and stopping or by being told to stop after he sees the other dog on point and recognizes it as a point/


what the judge is saying is, if i know the dog has seen his bracemate point, and has recognized it as a point, i want to see him honor on his own.

if he does not honor on his own you can tell him to honor. if one is using the word whoa, many dogs will come to a stop but still not look at the other dog so it is still not recognizing a point and , as such, not honoring. just whoaing.

he cannot judge a dog on honor if all it does it stop on command. this would not be honoring but obed.

does this bit of rambling make sense?
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Postby zzweims » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:48 am

anne wrote:Steve,
Thanks again. I agree, I should have started at the Junior level, but that is well behind us know. I do have a 9 month old pup that I could run now but I don't want her catching birds in an uncontrolled situation so am skipping Junior all together.
I guess I just have to learn that hard way <g> In fact, my first handling experience was running a puppy I didn't know anything about in a field trial and then running my girl in a broke dog stake (She got a 2nd!).
I started show handling with a 2 year old dog that didn't know anything either.
Somehow I tend to do things all together backwards! LOL
Anne


Anne--go ahead and run the pup in JH and continue to run Indy in SH. Both will help with your handling skills. I do not permit my pups to catch a bird, nor do I permit my SH/Gundogs dogs to bust after the shot. If they do, I say "Thank you judges, but I'd like to pick up my dog." Only once did a judge refuse my request (and we Q'd in spite of ourselves). Consider it a training session. I particularly like JH with very young pups because they learn about horses, chaos, other dogs, etc. It's cheaper than a field trial, and you usually end up with a title :D

(terryg--good answer. Regardless of if/when you give the whoa command, the honor is a skill all by itself. The dog must honor --not just stop)
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