AKC Hunt Test Question

AKC, CKC, KC, ANKC, UKC, ENZI, etc. testing.

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A confused TONY- hunt test retrieve question

Postby Steve Anker » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:04 pm

Sorry you are confused Tony,

I'm confused as to how you own 3.5 GWP's,
-point five, must be joint custody, a wooley timeshare,
alternate weekends?

We are talking about a Hunt Test scenario, Judging a test, retrieves in a performance event, a Sporting Dog Exhibition, a set up bird field, based on prefaced rules, the acceptable performances, not a walk in the field with your daddys shotgun shooting for supper.
IF your dog is pointing a so called covey of sharpies and you shot just the single, the rest of the covey hasn't risen, and all that scent is in front,
Lord knows mine aint gonna budge if I command fetch, I'll bet yours wouldn't move either being well trained I suspect. Stop to flush?
Absolutely, but I've never seen a covey of sharpies go up in an AKC event in the bird field,

If, IF, IF, if the Queen had a three piece set she'd be KING.
Hunting over ole rover, you can do as you please,
enjoy your hunt
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Postby mngsp » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:08 pm

I haven't seen a covey of sharpies in a bird field but I have seen them on the back course at Solon Springs many times.

"the task is an obedience issue"

"Lord knows mine aint gonna budge if I command fetch"

Doesn't that contrdict the first quote of yours? Tony is correct in saying that a judge must take things into consideration. My current rule book has spelled out in black and white an issue that has been troublesome for years. But we still encounter things that aren't this clear in both Master and especially Senior Hunt Tests.

We are supposed to judge a hunting situation in an unhighly hunting situation. I hope to hunt off horseback someday but in my 37 years my dogs have never seen two guys riding on horses when hunting. We do our best to balance fairness in what we would like with what the rules state without ever cheapening any title.
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Postby Tony » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:38 pm

mngsp,

Correct me if I am wrong, but your new rule book only addresses the retrieving score of the multiple bird situation. What about the pointing score? Should a MH be able to chase a bird just because it flushed within sight when the dog was sent for a retrieve? IMO, this is a judgement call, not always a pick-up offense.


Steve,

"Stop-to-flush", good answer.
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Postby mngsp » Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:40 pm

Tony

I assume you are talking about what should be done when the dog sent on a retrieve points a bird either on the way out or the way back. The book doesn't address this and it becomes a judges call. It happened to me while handling my GWP in a SH Test. She points bird, I flush, gunner shoots and kills, I send my dog on retrieve, she get bird and on the way back to me 6 ft from me goes on point still holding the first bird in her mouth. Judge orders me to work pointed bird, flush bird, gunner shoots bird, bird falls, dog steady still holding first bird in mouth, send her to retrieve, she then drops first bird and procedes to complete retrieve on second bird. The judges gave me credit for two finds and points and one retrieve.

As far as MH dog chasing, it is a judgement call. If the bird comes up relatively close to the dogs path on the retrieve I wouldn't penalize the dog or handler. If on the retrieve a bird wild flushes say 20 yards off the retrieve line and the MH dog chases I would probably have the dog hooked up. But it is a jdgement call.
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mngsp- contradiction? Not hardly

Postby Steve Anker » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:44 pm

MNgsp,

To flogg this dead mule once more,

I guess you don't Field Trial and have never had to reset a dog on point to pin a bird, to get credit for the find in order to place in a Stake. If the bird is there and you can't find it, even if you release the dog he won't budge, as I described. If trained conventional.
When we train a young espiring talent we will set such scenarios up to "bomb proof" the dog. Usually they fail the first few set ups, but they learn to stay put on point if game is present. NOW, if sent for a retrieve, with a covey of sharpies in front of them, by sweet Jesus they aint gonna budge.
Off topic slightly,
There was a fella who had a booth at a Hunt Fish Show, he had a GSP there, trained not to move on WHOA, he put a 100 dollar bill in the dogs mouth, put the dog in a ring and asked folks to try to get the dog to move, if so, and the dog came to them they could keep the 100 dollar bill.
He had no payouts, despite hotdog temptations, whistles, horn blowing and the like.
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Postby slistoe » Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:48 pm

I didn't read the first page, but if the dog chases a flushed bird there is no judgement call - the dog did not honor the flush, regardless if he was on the way to retrieve or not.

If the dog is sent on a retrieve and on the way knocks a bird, even if they stop there is little to redeem them.

If a dog is retrieving, a bird lifts some distance from the dog, the dog ignores it and continues with the retrieve, the judges will have to look at the situation - did it warrant a stop to flush or not?
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Postby Tony » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:10 pm

slistoe wrote:if the dog chases a flushed bird there is no judgement call - the dog did not honor the flush, regardless if he was on the way to retrieve or not.

This is what I expect of my hunting dogs whether they are Master Hunters or not. If there is a bird in the air, you had better be standing still!

slistoe wrote:If the dog is sent on a retrieve and on the way knocks a bird, even if they stop there is little to redeem them.

If the dog stops at the flush, I wouldn't lower their score unless it was a blatant foul.

slistoe wrote:If a dog is retrieving, a bird lifts some distance from the dog, the dog ignores it and continues with the retrieve, the judges will have to look at the situation - did it warrant a stop to flush or not?

Read the dog, he will tell you whether he should have stopped or not.
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AKC Hunt Test Question

Postby Coveyrise64 » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:35 pm

I didn't mean to stir up a range war, just ask a situational type question. It sounds like there are several different opinions here and all have some legitimate points. If the situation happened in 6 different hunt tests you would probably get 6 different judgements. But, more than likely there are 6 different ways people would train/finish their dog to respond. So what it boils down to is, if the situation comes up in a test just hope you have a judge that sees it your way. Another good case for having judges that have hunted over their dogs.

Thanks for the input

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Hacking and Out of Control at the MH level

Postby gsp2west » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:08 pm

For the AKC Hunt Test Judges: Why is excessive HACKING and way Out of Control not enforced as the rule book implies, at the MH level?? This is categorically not enforced at every hunt test I attend.
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Postby Honeyrun » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:37 pm

Any test that I judge, you will definitely see that rule enforced. After all, this is HUNT test and when you hunt, do you sing or hack a dog?
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Postby Greifdogs » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:34 am

Cindy, are you asking or do you believe that a hunter should not sing to his dog? Depends on the grounds and the part the country. I have never hunted back east and most likely never will. But, have hunted MT, ND, SD, NE, IA, KS, NM, TX, OK, and AZ. I have never hunted anywhere the dogs found birds closer than 100 plus yards, even in tight CRP of Kansas. Most places we hunt, a dog can be 150 yards and be somewhat out of pocket. So, yes, we do sing to the dogs and sometimes blatantly hack the dogs. Now, it all comes down to definitions, what is hacking? What is "excessive"? What is under control? I've only run in one MH for a score, but have run a dog as a bye dog in around 10. What I have seen down here in the many many hunting tests I have attended and run in, is judges who want near total silence in SH and particularly MH. Those judges are usually show people who do not hunt wild birds or even preserve birds for that matter. Then, you'll get the hardcore wild bird hunters who just so happen to sometimes show, run a few trials, run a few hunting tests, who will on occasion know what it takes for a dog to be "an effective hunting" dog in this part of the country. They allow some singing, a few "HEREs", a little hacking to keep the dog a little closer. They consider each find, back, retrieve, as if it were a HUNTING situation and they aren't purely looking for negatives, for reasons to pick dogs up, but for dogs that are truly effective wild bird hunting companions. Now, those are the judges that SHOULD always be judging in all field venues, whether AKC Hunting Tests, AKC or FDSB horseback trials, NSTRA, or NAVHDA. I've just seen far too many non hunters give passing scores to boot polishing no style no hunting dogs with one mannerly on the path find, when a dog with a slight bobble and 6 perfect finds doesn't pass.

All this is NOT to say that a run off should get a passing score in JH, SH, or MH. That if a handler is constantly hollering the dog is an effective hunting companion. But, it is also to say that I'd rather see an occasional "GET OVER HERE" or little bit of singing, to a dog that runs the path and never hits an objective, but has one clean find. Which of those dogs is most likely to find wild birds in any part of the country?????? Probably why I don't judge hunting tests.

However, last HT I attended, the Lone Star GSPC club...there were 8 Master dogs, only one score, my dog. There were no SH dogs that passed. And, only about half of the JH dogs passed. At this place, everyone had birds pretty much. Judges are HUNTERS and didn't just give even JH scores if a dog stumbled on birds. Dogs actually had to HUNT!!!!
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Postby mngsp » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:11 am

They consider each find, back, retrieve, as if it were a HUNTING situation and they aren't purely looking for negatives, for reasons to pick dogs up, but for dogs that are truly effective wild bird hunting companions. Now, those are the judges that SHOULD always be judging in all field venues, whether AKC Hunting Tests, AKC or FDSB horseback trials, NSTRA, or NAVHDA. I've just seen far too many non hunters give passing scores to boot polishing no style no hunting dogs with one mannerly on the path find, when a dog with a slight bobble and 6 perfect finds doesn't pass.


Blake

You can come and judge one of my Hunt Tests anyday, heck I'll even run my dog under your judgement.

The key is getting judges that HUNT as this is a hunting test hopefully simulating hunting conditions as closely as possible. It is a piece of work when you see a handler and his dog do great MH work with complete silence, but it doesn't happen often and need not be a requirement. If you can't talk to your dog and handle, why do they even require a handler?

A handler should be able to handle the dog. But the guideline I use in MH is that dog sure better respond to the handler the first time, that's handling. If the handler has to yell or repeat commands two or three times, that's hacking and will be reflected accordingly in the trainability score.

There a certain things in a MH test that will get your dog hooked up with no questions asked. But the judge shouldn't be a NAZI and look for the slightest stummble to order a dog up. I will keep that dog on the ground and might get to see some awesome dog work after that!

Even though the following was written in regards to judging field trials, the principles should still be adhered to by a HT judge if we want the AKC HT games to mean anything.

In 1933 Clarence F. Aldrich of St. Paul, MN., an official of the Northern States Amateur Field Trial Association wrote:
"It is generally conceded that we cannot judge bird dogs in the field by a set of stereotyped figures; we must have something in our minds besides mathematics"

Aldrich wrote out a set of judging maxims and pasted them to the front of his judicial notebook.

He wrote:

1- Do not measure a dog's greatness by the distance he goes from his handler to find birds.

2-Do not give preference to quanity, if brilliancy is lacking.

3-Do not be carried away by a temporary display of brilliancy; remember one swallow does not make a Summer.

4-Do not make a dog win twice.

5-It is better to condone the slight mistake of a genius than to reward mediocrity.

"In these five precepts lieth the essence of the entire law of field trial judging."
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Postby Greifdogs » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:41 pm

5-It is better to condone the slight mistake of a genius than to reward mediocrity.

YES YES YES YES !!!!!!

I am not condoning out of control dogs over under control. I am not condoning run offs to closer workers. I am not condoning four perfect finds then a dead chase getting a passing score. Heck a 100 yard hard hunter is superior in most areas to the 600 yard run off, right!!!??

However, why give a pass to a junior dog who runs the path and pseudo points a bird over the dog that was a little roguey but had 11 perfect beautiful points? Why fail a Master dog with six perfect finds and retrieves for a caution on his third back? Why pass the dog that runs up wind and sight points two birds? Why pass the dog that walked around for 20 minutes? Why fail the dog that runs big and may be a hair "out of gun range" in junior, when the boot polisher stumbles around and is never out of gun range and gets a pass??

Get hunters to judge who also know the hunting test rules. Choose those who have actually passed at that level instead of letting a person who has never gone beyond a junior score, judge Master. Why avoid an old wild bird hunter because he doesn't run hunting tests over a show person who has one senior pass?

I am still of the OPINION that hunting tests can be about producing better dogs just like trials are, supposedly. Why not look for dogs that can produce outstanding hunting companions and not just under control robots that have had so much obedience put on them they wouldn't break if you offered them a ribeye.

MNGSP, after that tirade maybe you don't want me judging. I know some of the clubs down this way sure don't. Works for me. I will never pass a dog that I wouldn't take hunting and expect at least some success!!! Part of why they don't want me judging hunting tests. And, my fine personality I would think.
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Postby orhunter » Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:13 pm

Greifdogs:

Your personality flaws, if any, are what make you a good judge of dogs. You are probably an equally good judge of people. The local NAVHDA chapter has suggested many time that I ought to become a judge but for the reasons you've brought to light, I don't think it'd work for either of us. I don't think I could give a prize one UT score to dog where it was obvious it hadn't hunted much. Ya know, the train first, hunt later kind of dog/owner. That's what the "H" in NAVHDA stands for.
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Postby Greifdogs » Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:44 pm

Orhunter, my girlfriend says I have personality flaws, but I don't see them. So, No I'm perfect in every way. Can't seem to make others understand that is the case however. Ya'll have a great weekend!! Gotta go run pups tomorrow am at 6. It's a chilly 85 degrees here at that time. Same temps as our Texas winters!!
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