AKC Hunt Test Question

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AKC Hunt Test Question

Postby Coveyrise64 » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:11 am

Got a Hunt Test question. Dog points, steady to wing, shot, fall and sent to retrieve. On way to retrieve, another bird flushes wild. What should the dog do? Continue on sent retrieve or stop to flush. If dog stops to flush, are you allowed to walk to dog and release it again to retrieve first bird?


Thanks...

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Postby larue » Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:27 am

I do not know what the rules are,,,tough situation,,
i would not pick the dog up,if he continued on without a stop to flush,
,,nor would I fault a dog if he had to be resent,,or helped to the original bird...,,as it was sent on a retrieve,I would expect a retrieve of the shot bird...a perfect handling would be a stop to flush,,then a recommand
followed by a retrieve of the first bird...without any help from the handler..But this is a situtaion for a judge to be a judge,,not a follwer of rules,,and I would also want to see another retrieve......in fact I might call the dog back for a retrieve if the dog needed alot of help,,in the tough situation...if the dog did not have another retrieve..
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Postby Honeyrun » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:28 am

I agree with Larue on this. Stop to flush or a continue of the first retrieve would warrant and second retrieve even if I had to call the dog back to do so.

I have had a dog that was returing with a bird in it's mouth, stop and point another bird. The judges were at a quandry as to what to do (they weren't hunters) so I walked up to the dog, held my hand out and said drop, then preceeded to flush the other bird that was retrieved in perfect fashion. We passed with very high scores that day. The judges learned a lesson that day. What would you do if you were hunting and this happened?
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Postby Tony » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:41 am

Honeyrun wrote:The judges were at a quandry as to what to do (they weren't hunters) so I walked up to the dog, held my hand out and said drop, then preceeded to flush the other bird that was retrieved in perfect fashion. We passed with very high scores that day. The judges learned a lesson that day. What would you do if you were hunting and this happened?


That works for me! :D

I have very little respect for Hunt Test judges who do not hunt. IMO, they are the ones who have cheapened the hunt test titles by their lack of knowledge and their inability to react to the various situations that happen every day in the real hunting world.


In the real hunting world, if a bird is shot and the dog is sent for a retrieve and another bird flushes, the dog should stop to flush. It happens all of the time with wild birds no matter which species you are hunting. In a real hunting situation, you will probably shoot the second bird too unless you already have your limit or it is a hen pheasant. I really wouldn't care which bird my dog retrieved first, but they usually go after the obvious cripple (if there is one) before the stone-dead bird.

In a hunt test situation, the birds don't flush like wild birds, and they don't fly as far as wild birds. Sometimes the bird will be missed by the gunner and still drop as if it was shot, or a shot bird will land beside a live bird. How is the dog to know that the bird that flushes isn't the same bird that it was sent to retrieve?

Dog points, steady to wing, shot, fall and sent to retrieve. On way to retrieve, another bird flushes wild. What should the dog do? Continue on sent retrieve or stop to flush. If dog stops to flush, are you allowed to walk to dog and release it again to retrieve first bird?


Ideally the dog should stop-to-flush when the second bird flushes. If I were judging, I would let you walk to the dog, make sure he is on the right line, and release him to retrieve the shot bird. If the dog takes off after the flushed bird instead of finishing the retrieve, I would chalk that up to bad luck and you would be asked to pick him up. If your dog finished the retrieve, he would have earned some very high scores. A lot of non-hunting judges would count that find as a "nothing" and let your dog find another bird. Some dogs would have chased the flushed bird because they were sent for a retrieve and a lot of non-hunting judges would forgive them for it and let them continue. :roll:
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Postby ME » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:46 pm

If the dog takes off after the flushed bird instead of finishing the retrieve, I would chalk that up to bad luck and you would be asked to pick him up.


And you talk about non hunter cheapening the MH title LOL..

they are the ones who have cheapened the hunt test titles by their lack of knowledge and their inability to react to the various situations that happen every day in the real hunting world.



What would you expect the dog to do..? If you couldn't stop the dog and redirect it to the area of the original fall then yes pick it up.. But just because the dog wants to chase down a bird that it thinks was just shot.. LOL

I had this happen in a UT, the dog stopped to flush. I sent him and he went to where he had just seen the other bird fly that flushed wild fly to. This bird got up about 5 yards from where the other one was knocked down. I called him back towards me and then sent him again, then he went to the area of the original fall and made the retrieve. I guess he should have been picked up since that would never happen in the real hunting world...LOL

And you shouldn't need to go to your dog to direct him to the downed bird well if it is a truly versatile dog that is.....
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Postby mngsp » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:14 pm

This has always been a sticky issue, I tossed dog once for the same thing and it bugged me so much that I had never done it since. Last year I recieved a rule book from the AKC dated February 2004 that clears the air.

Guidelines, Part II, Hunt Test Catergories, Part 5, Page 33

"Some unusual situations can occur in the retrieve. For instance, the gunner fires a shot and the bird goes down. When the dog is sent for the retrieve, the bird flies away........In this circumstance, the attempt should not be scored and the judges should give a dog a chance to retrieve another bird....."

"Another situation which can occur is the appearance of a second live bird which pops up in the general vicinity of a downed bird. The dog is sent to retrieve a downed bird and either grabs or chases the second bird. Judges should not score the dog lower in retrieving for this action and should score the dog on it's retrieve if it returns with the bird. If the dog catches the bird and doen't make an acceptable retrieve, it should be scored lower in retrieving."

So this has made it official that a dog shouldn't be hooked up.
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Postby JB » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:22 pm

This exact thing happened has to me. My dog did go for the bird that flushed, caught that bird and made the retrieve. The judge asked me to pick my dog up and I nicely protested and won. How can a judge fault a dog for doing what it was asked to do, fetch? My dog was steady, he was sent for a retrieve, and did just that, retrieved a bird that he thought he was sent for. How does a dog know that this bird isn't a crip that got up again and flew an additional 20 yards? Planted birds unlike wild ones usually fly so poorly I would think it may be tough for a dog to tell the difference between wounded and healthy bird. If I'm real hunting (and yes, I hunt 3 to 5 days a week) and my dog stopped to flush on a crip that took off again or a wild flushed healthy Iowa rooster while going for a retrieve I would be pretty bummed, I want my dog to get to the downed bird fast. So, if I was judging I would not fault a dog for going with a bird that flushed after the fetch command was given. If the dog stopped to flush that would be fine too and I would allow the handler to resend his dog for the downed bird.
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Postby JB » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:22 pm

This exact thing happened has to me. My dog did go for the bird that flushed, caught that bird and made the retrieve. The judge asked me to pick my dog up and I nicely protested and won. How can a judge fault a dog for doing what it was asked to do, fetch? My dog was steady, he was sent for a retrieve, and did just that, retrieved a bird that he thought he was sent for. How does a dog know that this bird isn't a crip that got up again and flew an additional 20 yards? Planted birds unlike wild ones usually fly so poorly I would think it may be tough for a dog to tell the difference between wounded and healthy bird. If I'm real hunting (and yes, I hunt 3 to 5 days a week) and my dog stopped to flush on a crip that took off again or a wild flushed healthy Iowa rooster while going for a retrieve I would be pretty bummed, I want my dog to get to the downed bird fast. So, if I was judging I would not fault a dog for going with a bird that flushed after the fetch command was given. If the dog stopped to flush that would be fine too and I would allow the handler to resend his dog for the downed bird.
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Postby JB » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:34 pm

<<I tossed dog once for the same thing and it bugged me so much that I had never done it since. Last year I recieved a rule book from the AKC dated February 2004 that clears the air.>>

Thanks for clearing the air mngsp, bet you lost sleep after reading those rules huh? :oops:
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Postby mngsp » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:07 pm

It bugged me for days after the event.
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Postby Tony » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:35 pm

mngsp wrote:This has always been a sticky issue, I tossed dog once for the same thing and it bugged me so much that I had never done it since. Last year I recieved a rule book from the AKC dated February 2004 that clears the air.

Guidelines, Part II, Hunt Test Catergories, Part 5, Page 33

"Some unusual situations can occur in the retrieve. For instance, the gunner fires a shot and the bird goes down. When the dog is sent for the retrieve, the bird flies away........In this circumstance, the attempt should not be scored and the judges should give a dog a chance to retrieve another bird....."

"Another situation which can occur is the appearance of a second live bird which pops up in the general vicinity of a downed bird. The dog is sent to retrieve a downed bird and either grabs or chases the second bird. Judges should not score the dog lower in retrieving for this action and should score the dog on it's retrieve if it returns with the bird. If the dog catches the bird and doen't make an acceptable retrieve, it should be scored lower in retrieving."

So this has made it official that a dog shouldn't be hooked up.


It is impossible to judge a hunt test over the internet. If a judge tells you to "hook him up", you may be able to plead your case, but you are paying for his opinion whether you agree with it or not. mngsp's rulebook was published after I attended the judges seminar, so I haven't seen the newest rules yet. An experienced judge with hunting experience will usually make the correct decision when the questionable event happens because their gut will tell them whether it was okay or not. It is a hunt test and we could "what if" every imaginable situation possible, but if a judge knows the rules and has enough hunting experience, he will usually make the correct decision. It is the judges that get that blank look on their face and have to discuss the situation with their judging partner that you have to worry about.
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Postby mngsp » Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:23 pm

Tony

I agree that blank look from a judge is a terrible feeling when your handler, I'd rather have a judge make a decision, hopefully correct, and live by it.

As a judge all we can do is take what the rules are as given, use our experiences, and common sense to hopefully make the best decisions we can. If I judge says that he or she has has never errored he or she is full of $#*!. I have made errors and I do what I hope all judges do...learn from them and try to become a better judge each time out.
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Postby maverickdvm » Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:06 pm

Happened to me in Master as well, I was sure I would be hooking him up when he went for the retrieve and a second bird jumped up in the area of the fall. He proceeded to jump up, catch the bird and retrieve it without hesitation. The gunner kept apologizing because he thought he had missed the bird, but I knew it was hit. The judges had to stop me from thinking I was done. They explained it as once the dog is sent on a fetch, he better come back with a bird from somewhere around the area of the fall without other commands.
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Hunt Test Question

Postby Steve Anker » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:30 am

Greetings Veedawgerz,

This retrieving question comes up every season. This very situation is more common than folks think.
My standard ruling, speaking as an AKC Judge/Handler/Trainer,
if the bird was shot and a long retrieve was required,
with a live bird in the path of the retrieve, when sent-
the dog was commanded to retrieve, tasked for a chore, released,
ordered out, prompted,
so something should be brought back, live or dead,
live, wounded, dead or rotten, something should be hangin' out dat dogs face. The dog should NOT have to differentiate between live or dead,
the task is an obedience issue. To split hairs about collateral birds after a task has been given is moot. A chase and catch on a live encountered bird followed by a prompt retrieve fulfills the requirement. Another bird could be shot over the dog if any doubt remains. (or if the bird flies off)
However, and all this is where Judgement comes into play, if a dog slamms into point on the LIVE bird halfway out on the retrieve, we would order that bird shot to complete the requirement.
Generally, either way would suffice pending an overall acceptable performance.
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Postby Tony » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:27 am

Steve,

I am confused by your post. :?

What if:

1. Your dog points a covey of sharptail

2. A bird flushes and you kill it

3. You send the dog for a retrieve

4. The rest of the covey flushes while you are reloading your gun

5. Instead of stopping-to-flush, your dog takes off after the rest of the covey because he was sent for a retrieve

6. He comes back with a hen pheasant "hangin' out dat dogs face"

Is this the kind of performance that we should expect from a Master Hunter?
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