Types of Shotguns Used

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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:33 pm

orhunter wrote:I sold an 11-87 because it shot too low. From all outward appearance it seemed to fit. To get it to shoot higher, I removed the front bead, it helped but not enough. I really liked that gun but it didn't kill ducks well. The only off the shelf guns that shoot where I look are Model 12's and A-5's. The New A-5 seems to shoot as well as the oldies....and much lighter.


I could remove the beads from my shotguns, and it would make no difference at all. I concentrate on the target, and I don;t even notice the beads.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby orhunter » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:30 pm

Stubblejumper: I don't look at the barrel either and having the bead gone made no difference in how I viewed the target because my brain adjusted automatically. Maybe I should have taken the other bead off and shot a slick rib? Thought about it but didn't do it. It wouldn't have changed what my brain saw.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:02 pm

Stubblejumper,
Yes that is true that the ribs can have some impact.

But think about this. Whats the percentage of pattern on a board with your guns that have two beads? Are they all 50/ 50 When stacked or are they 60/40? Have you checked them? And what is the percentage on your trap gun? Some May be as high 70/30?

The point is, you cant just stack the beads and think you are good to go, You need to check the point of AIM to see where the beads put the pattern when stacked and when in line. And ultimately, you need to shoot the pattern board to see where it shoots for POI. And realistically, for wingshooting we don't care how the beads stack. Double beads are only really useful for pre mounted games such as trap.

Because as you said, we are focused on the leading edge of the target, beak on bird, front edge on a clay. Our brain however does see the end of the barrel and uses it to determine where the gun is pointing. It just becomes a problem when we actually focus on the barrel.

I have done some testing with beads and with out and I think it does have some influence as the brain will adjust slightly for the highest point at the end of the barrel.

I have two interesting stories about fit. The first one i forgot about until a few years ago. When I was old enough to start shooting the model 12, my dad took me out and had me throw the gun up and shoot at gopher mound about 20 yards away. He then took the gun in the garage, pulled the stock off, put the extension for the stock bolt in a vice and bent it down. He then refit the stock and took me out and did it again. He was giving me more drop at comb because it shot high for me. the second story is Ihave my grandfathers W richards 12 ga muzzleloader. Late 1800s Im guessing. the sock has quite a bit of cast off in it. Clearly it was intentionally done to improve fit. The gun fits me perfect. So shotgun fit is nothing new. And again, not rocket science. I hope to shoot some chukars with it!

I suspect by now that the OP's brain is full!
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby jlw034 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:31 pm

overit2 wrote:So, first time Vdog owner here, also, just recently acquired my hunting license after completing the safety course.

So basically, newbie. As a short woman (5 4') I'm wondering recommendations for shotguns?

Yesterday at a sporting place I just handled a couple and found that a 20 gauge for youth fit me MUCH better then the regular one. For hunting quail, better to use pump or semi-automatic? New to all of this!

Thanks!

And yes, we've started the pup exposing him to blanks/starter pistols and he's seen a hunt test and been to a training day for AKC. He starts NAVHDA spring/summer training days this month also.


x2 for shouldering as many shotguns as you can.

Recently bought a 20ga over/under, and it fits me terribly. I can feel myself over-correcting when I swing it. Just not a good gun for me.

I let a neighbor girl shoot it a couple weeks ago. She really didn't like the amount of kick it put out. She's probably 120lbs soaking wet. If you're worried about kick, a gas gun would be great for you. A Browning Silver Hunter Micro Midas might be a good gun to look into.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:40 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Stubblejumper,
Yes that is true that the ribs can have some impact.

But think about this. Whats the percentage of pattern on a board with your guns that have two beads? Are they all 50/ 50 When stacked or are they 60/40? Have you checked them? And what is the percentage on your trap gun? Some May be as high 70/30?

The point is, you cant just stack the beads and think you are good to go, You need to check the point of AIM to see where the beads put the pattern when stacked and when in line. And ultimately, you need to shoot the pattern board to see where it shoots for POI. And realistically, for wingshooting we don't care how the beads stack. Double beads are only really useful for pre mounted games such as trap.

Because as you said, we are focused on the leading edge of the target, beak on bird, front edge on a clay. Our brain however does see the end of the barrel and uses it to determine where the gun is pointing. It just becomes a problem when we actually focus on the barrel.

I have done some testing with beads and with out and I think it does have some influence as the brain will adjust slightly for the highest point at the end of the barrel.

I have two interesting stories about fit. The first one i forgot about until a few years ago. When I was old enough to start shooting the model 12, my dad took me out and had me throw the gun up and shoot at gopher mound about 20 yards away. He then took the gun in the garage, pulled the stock off, put the extension for the stock bolt in a vice and bent it down. He then refit the stock and took me out and did it again. He was giving me more drop at comb because it shot high for me. the second story is Ihave my grandfathers W richards 12 ga muzzleloader. Late 1800s Im guessing. the sock has quite a bit of cast off in it. Clearly it was intentionally done to improve fit. The gun fits me perfect. So shotgun fit is nothing new. And again, not rocket science. I hope to shoot some chukars with it!

I suspect by now that the OP's brain is full!


When I shoulder my guns the beads are not stacked on any of them. They do overlap considerably, and are pretty much in line with every gun I own. But that is consistent with any of my shotguns, and my trap gun still shoots noticeably higher than any of my other guns, because the rib is designed to produce a higher point of impact with that gun, as is normal with trap guns. And yes I have patterned my shotguns, and I am well aware of where they shoot, aware enough to have earned my 100 straight patch at skeet, and my 25 straight patch at trap, which I rarely shoot. Every shotgun that I own fits me, and I have taken the bead off of a skeet gun , to prove that it did not effect my scores at all. Yes a person does subconsciously see the barrels when wing shooting, but I don't pay attention to the beads, and they don't effect my shooting. I don't even look at the beads when mounting my gun for trap or skeet, in fact the first thing I did with the guns with interchangeable beads, was to remove the hi-viz bead, and replace it with the smallest white bead, so I don't consciously notice the bead at all.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:25 pm

OK,
so that really proves my point, you shoot your guns with the dual beads in line very well. If the stock was set up with the beads stacked, you would shoot higher and not shoot as well!
Dual beads are only important in pre mounted games.
a trap gun will be set up so it shoots higher , because targets are RISING. It will shoot even higher if the beads are stacked. Make sense?

And you need to remember. Skeet is skeet, its not a game bird.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:37 am

Kiger2 wrote:OK,
so that really proves my point, you shoot your guns with the dual beads in line very well. If the stock was set up with the beads stacked, you would shoot higher and not shoot as well!
Dual beads are only important in pre mounted games.
a trap gun will be set up so it shoots higher , because targets are RISING. It will shoot even higher if the beads are stacked. Make sense?

And you need to remember. Skeet is skeet, its not a game bird.


My point was that trap guns are designed to shoot higher, regardless of how you align the beads. If you can't hit the clays at skeet, you won't hit game birds. If you can center the pattern on clays, you will center it on game birds. Sporting clays is actually the closest to simulating wild birds, but the skeet shooters that I have hunted with all shot well on birds as well. And as far as the guns go, skeet/sporting clays guns tend to shoot to the same point of impact as field guns do, so I find skeet or sporting clays to be a good indication as to whether I will shoot a shotgun well on game birds.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Coveyrise64 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:12 pm

orhunter wrote:I sold an 11-87 because it shot too low. From all outward appearance it seemed to fit. To get it to shoot higher, I removed the front bead, it helped but not enough. I really liked that gun but it didn't kill ducks well. The only off the shelf guns that shoot where I look are Model 12's and A-5's. The New A-5 seems to shoot as well as the oldies....and much lighter.


The 11-87 would have been an easy fix......

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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby orhunter » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:43 pm

Coveyrise: Yea, I probably could have had custom choke tubes made or some other simple thing. Kinda sorry I didn't. Whole lot lighter gun than the A-5's and it digested every kind of ammo I fed it.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Coveyrise64 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:06 pm

orhunter wrote:Coveyrise: Yea, I probably could have had custom choke tubes made or some other simple thing. Kinda sorry I didn't. Whole lot lighter gun than the A-5's and it digested every kind of ammo I fed it.

No custom choke tubes, an 1/8" rise in comb height will effectively raise the point of impact 4" at 40yds. This can be accomplished a couple of ways. Add Mole Skin to the comb to build the proper height or they make a comb riser for a more professional look. Another option is to shorten the stock slightly, this has basically the same effect because your cheek will contact the stock higher on the comb due to the angle. Most people don't realize that when you add three layers of clothes the LOP increases which will cause the gun to shoot lower. The reverse effect of shortening the stock.

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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:48 pm

Stubblejunmper,
Dont overcomplicate this. Orhunter said stack the beads. That will cause the gun to shoot higher than when they are inline, so you cant just say "stack the beads".
Which is "exactly" what you are saying!!!
What I reallly want is not to worry the OP about beads!!!!! we shouldn't even be looking at them.



And you cant just say "if you center the pattern on clays, you will center it on game birds" . As you have admitted, a trap gun will be set up to shoot higher. Thats because in trap the target is always rising , so you have some built in "lead" to center the pattern on the clay. Even in skeet the clays are moving up more than down.

Thats why sporting is a better game for wing shooters. (Though I will take any practice i can get at any venue)

A great percentage of our shots chukar hunting are going down and away. I don't believe from what I've seen , a skeet set up would be optimum.

Go to OSP.com, check out Gil and Vicki ash. They believe we would all shoot better with more drop at comb.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:54 pm

also Coveyrise is right.
there are simple things that can be done, in a lot of cases that can help things. Ive taped a towel to a stock to help show a that it wasn't him or the gun that was causing him to miss. It was fit.

The worst case is if you need more drop, then you are into filing off the comb. ( at least on some guns)

The other thing to remember, is that there is no real reason anyone cant shoot a gun well if it fits them, and it will feel comfortable to them. Get a gun that fits, pratcice with it and then pick up a different gun and it will feel strange.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby stubblejumper » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:21 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Stubblejunmper,
Dont overcomplicate this. Orhunter said stack the beads. That will cause the gun to shoot higher than when they are inline, so you cant just say "stack the beads".
Which is "exactly" what you are saying!!!
What I reallly want is not to worry the OP about beads!!!!! we shouldn't even be looking at them.



And you cant just say "if you center the pattern on clays, you will center it on game birds" . As you have admitted, a trap gun will be set up to shoot higher. Thats because in trap the target is always rising , so you have some built in "lead" to center the pattern on the clay. Even in skeet the clays are moving up more than down.

Thats why sporting is a better game for wing shooters. (Though I will take any practice i can get at any venue)

A great percentage of our shots chukar hunting are going down and away. I don't believe from what I've seen , a skeet set up would be optimum.

Go to OSP.com, check out Gil and Vicki ash. They believe we would all shoot better with more drop at comb.



I took the stacked beads comment to mean setting the gun up with the beads stacked, not to aim with the beads stacked, as I don't aim a shotgun with the beads. Depending how a person holds the gun, some people actually shoot better if the gun is set up with the beads stacked, even though I shoot better with the beads overlapping. I like all of my guns except my trap guns to shoot right around 50/50, and my trap gun shoots around 60/40 I posted that I test my field guns at skeet, not trap, because my skeet/sporting clays and field guns all shoot pretty much to the same point of impact if they fit me. As to a trap target always rising, how often do you shoot doubles trap? By the time you are on the second target, it has usually either leveled out , and at times is even falling. And if you shoot skeet in a strong wind, the wind often pushes the targets down , especially if the wind is from behind the high house. When shooting doubles skeet in high winds, it can be a race to hit the second target at stations 3,4 and 5, before they strike the ground, well before the opposite house. And I did post that sporting clays most closely simulates game birds. but I shoot a lot more skeet that I do sporting clays, and my skeet scores are more consistent, so I can do more valid comparisons between guns when I shoot skeet.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby woodboro » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:39 pm

When I shoot at clays or wild game , there is only one thing I look at , and it is the target swing.
The gun has to fit , like an old hat for you , so you do not look at the gun.

I have a Ugy' 12 gauge that I use for late season Phez hunting out west.
2 years ago , something was off, and ironically a farmer friend had the same issue.
I purposely took my time on my last shoot to see the issue and immediately realized I was not covering the bird.
Once I figured that out , I also advised my friend , we were swinging to much.... :lol:
The birds started to fall.
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Re: Types of Shotguns Used

Postby orhunter » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:43 am

Stacking the beads on a hunting gun is part of fit, it is not a physical act or it shouldn't be. Nothing about bird shooting is a planned sequence of events.

As a kid, I didn't shoot so well on rising phez straightaways. Someone told me to shoot at the back of their head. That really helped. I was pretty good on passing shots because of pointing at thin air out front of the bird, not at it.

Coveyrise: That's a nice little addition. All I ever imagined was some ugly thing and none of us should hunt with an ugly gun. That isn't ugly at all.
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