Airedale blood in Versitile Pure Bred Lines

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Airedale blood in Versitile Pure Bred Lines

Postby birddoghunter » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:34 am

I have a hunting budy that claims most of the gsh, gwh, wpg and dd have some airedale blood, supposedly infused when these breeds where established. Does anybody have any information or comments on this?? Thnaks for any and all replys

Happy Hunting

D :usa
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Airedale

Postby bill10979 » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:01 am

I have a hard time buying it- except maybe Griff and DD(GWP)
The Dale was developed around England with Bull Terrier/Otterhound/Setter blood for the most part.
The German breeds(Shorthairs) were developed before the Airedale was conceived I believe-Weims, Spanish Pointer and other breeds. The DD/GWP is all of 100 years old.

I have read about Dales being used for the DD in some dog books, I cant validate that any further, but I find the hardness of the breed
in line with a terrier on prey and furry critters,much more so than shorts.
The nose(tracking) of the DD is also well known/respected and again makes me wonder a bit.
The rare Stichelhaar was a dog used to create the DD. Perhaps some Airedale was used with this breed. It was known to be a good tracker, ill tempered but good wire coat. Im not a historian by any means, if someone else has more knowledge, please chime in.
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Postby orhunter » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:25 pm

Bill is pretty much right. The Griff's origin goes back a long way to the time when folks just bred dogs that hunted well. I don't have a clue when the Airedale came about but old picture depicting hunting scenes, show dogs that look kind of like a cross between a Griff and an Airedale. Both breeds probably have some common ancestors. Same with the Stichelhaar.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:53 pm

In all my reading here and while living in Europe, I have never seen a reference to the Airdale as a foundation breed for the DD. Since the DD was from the beginning supposed to be a pointing dog among many other things, I doubt that the Airdale would have been sought after. The hunting Dale (like most Terriers) is a much more independent dog whereas the DD should be able to be commanded on and off game. Different dogs-different temperaments.
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Postby Margaret » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:42 am

I've been sent a booklet from VDD as our NZKC has a wrong history of the DD on its website, and they would like me to correct it.
But I can't read German (dang).
I need to get the artilce on breed history interpreted.
But I can tell you the photographs displayed are; Griffon, Stichelhaar, Kurzhaar, Pudelpointer.

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Airedales

Postby bill10979 » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:04 am

No Deutsch Margaret, and here we were all beginning to marvel at how smart you are-so much more so than us guys(yanks to boot!) I figured you could speak at least 5 languages!
I would really like to learn more about the Stichelhaar and Griff, history wise. I think it may begin to answer some questions for us.Anything you can find might be helpful.
thanks
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Postby Flyingm » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:41 am

I am under the impression that the Stichelhaar idescends from the Cesky Fousek. The Stichelhaar club in Germany has recently allowed selected CF's to breed with their Stichelhaars. The idea being that they are really the same breed.
The CF is a very old breed and a lot of breeds may have been influenced by CF blood.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Margaret,
I know the book you are talking about and I have seen a translation of this article somewhere on kennel website. I'll try to come up with it for you.
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Postby Margaret » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:00 am

Gee Bill, I thought you would have noticed I have trouble writing English let alone know another language :wink:

Cesky Fousek is a very old breed and I think they are behind many if not most wirehaired gundogs, and the Europeans are ok with breeding back into a breed that is in the makeup up the breed in question if they feel it will benefit said breed in some way - remembering of course their breed clubs are more "formal" than our breed clubs.

Booklet Jon is - Deutsch-Drahthaar Festschrift 1902 bis 2002,
and the page is 100 Jahre Verein Deutsch-Drahthaar 1902 bis 2002, which I interpret as 100 years of club DD, by Professor Dr. Dieter Birnbaum.

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Postby terryg » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:24 pm

the airdale, though not the ones found here, are 1 of the 8 true "working breeds" of germany.

though i have never heard it stated, i have no doubt that at the time of development an "airdale" type dog could have been introduced.

at that time people paid far less attention to "labels" then they did desireable traits.

if an "airdale type" showed any interesting traits, physical or metal, that a breeder wished to infuse in his blood he did as he pleased and let the results speak for themselves.

all breeds started somewhere.

it is kinda like the biblical question of the first people on earth, adam and eve. they had 2 sons, cain and abel. who did they breed with? :wink:
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Airedale

Postby bill10979 » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:48 pm

Terry,
I know that to be true of the Airedales. Most all of them bred over there are Schutzhund titled dogs-as a true working breed. The question becomes when was the breed introduced into Deutschland from Great Britain, and how established was the WPG and Stichelhaar at that time?Were they outcrossing the Dale into these breeds or were they already well established.? I know little to nothing about Stichelhaars and not much more about WPG.
It would be interesting to know this and the development of these breeds, as they were instrumental in the DDs devlopment. In learning this, o you get a bit of a history lesson as well. Its fun learning.
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Postby terryg » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:30 pm

bill, i don't think anybody knows exactly what went into any of the breeds in the beginning. some of the breed arguments of today show without dna testing there is still know way for anybody to know for sure.

i read an article once about a strain of red rotts, just like red dobes, on the german/holland border area. it even had pictures though every old and grainy. was that a strain or one persons fluke?

many americans assume europeans live and do things for the same reasons we do. i find that not to be the case.

louis doberman was a constable/nightwatchman of a small hamlet where along with his two "expert canine breeding compainions" the bell ringer and the grave digger of the same hamlet, they bred dogs for 35 years to create "schnup" the the #1 entry in the breed book of the doberman.

"schnup" was a small black and tan curr bitch with a white spot on her chest. more than likely, but just a guess, she resembled a small rott(metzegerhund) which was a breed at least 100 years older but a major contributor. not the only one though.

the rotts then did not look at all like those of today.

i would imagine during this breeding period many dogs were blended to get the final result. louis doberman's only desire was to breed a dog "that didn't fear the devil himself and should he meet the devil would handle him nicely", so his requirements were not too demanding.

schnup was not considered a doberman but was bred to at least 3 sires, some say 8, and every pup that came out of her was registered in the brredbook as a doberman pinscher.

the name merely implies a "louis doberman terrier". it is the folks of today that bestow that name on a breed that "looks" a certain way.

seldom does it have to act like one at all or even be capable of that behavior.

regardless of the "breed experts" that spout their versions of the breed formation as if it was a first hand account, i tend to believe it more closely resembles the doberman, which like the metzegerhund, german boar hound, pudel, hovawart, schaferhund, resienschanuzer, drathaar, kurtzhaar, and many other breeds that were developed during this same 50 year period before they became the breeds we know them as today.

but just like you i am still fascinated by it, despite the different versions :wink:
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Postby Margaret » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:15 pm

What came before the first registration of a breed in the studbook, and the formation of a breed standard?

That's the question, and does it really matter?
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Postby hicntry » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:21 am

Without looking it up for an exact time line, the airedale was introduced along about the 1880's. Where things run amuck in researching breed histories, people doing the research tend to add things and leave things out to suit them. The books that were written back closer to the breed developement had the old black and tan terrier, English Bull Terrier, Otterhound, and a few others in the mix. Few recent books mention the English bull terrier because they consider it detritmental when considering the ill favor that has befallen the bull breeds in recent years. Modern writings on the airedale tend to describe the dog they think people should know about, ignoring true facts. Many were used as fighters because they have tremendous jaw power, long jaws and some of the most impressive teeth in the dog world. They were the classic poachers dog, silent on track and would do birds or anything else that was asked of them.
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