The Other terriers

Topics on non-sporting dog breeds

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Postby cesar17 » Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:19 pm

Bill I realize you know soooooo much about this topic. Do you think a retriever can tell the difference between a dead fowl training dummy and a real bird?Its the same thing with a lure and a rabbit. Some dogs we took off the track wouldn`t chase a lure anymore after experiencing what they were bred for. Sprinting after quarry. My family has owned 7 sight hounds. All were hot blooded. Our fastest bitch was timed in a 100 yard straight away. Mathematically calculated to 48 MPH. A friend of ours owned a grandson of Kunta Kinte who was one of the fastest greyhounds ever. He ran 51 MPH. How do they TURN and CATCH a jackrabbit that averages 45 MPH. They do it through speed not endurance. Sled-dogs are nothing in this conversation. They are endurance dogs not SPRINTERS. I never said that a Jagd is faster than a sighthound. I said a Jagd went about 35 MPH. Any sighthound worth feeding is considerably faster. Lurchers aren`t even as fast as a purebred sight hound. Long dogs are but when you breed lurchers you loose some speed. The whole gist of this conversation is if a dog that double suspension gallops is faster than one that doesn`t. I know the answer to this question through experience. How do you get your info?
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Postby bill10979 » Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:27 am

Im by no means an expert, never owned 1. Seen a race-talked to my uncle whos hunted with em and lurchersand different dogs around the world. Hunted my entire life with some pretty fast bird dogs, about 25 years or so. Had some very fast GSPs and a DD-some are extremely fast and athletic. I mentioned they are used to breed sled dog for Sustainable speed. Ive had mine run behind me at what looked like bit over 30mph, and these were some of the faster dogs Ive seen work.
If your dog ran 51mph, your name should be in the Guiness Book Of World Records-or dog rather. You eclipsed the speed record for any dog. Im getting my info off various dog racing sights. Some dogs will chase an artificial mechanical lure-most will, some wont, some dont know any difference, it all they know. Fastest recorded speed around the world Ive seen is 45.5mph. Whippets run about 35-38mph, they are alot faster than a Jagd. My German Shepherds ran at a double gallop. They were fast as well, but not approaching 40mph.
A mathematical formula might not be as accurate as you think is my guess. I dont doubt they are quick, but the strides are 1/3 that of real racing dog using the same gait-double gallop. I just think your speeds are a bit exaggerated, but show me a recently calibrated radar gun and a photo and Ill buy you a beer and admit Im wrong.
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Postby drfatguy » Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:23 am

Bill,
You have clouded this issue. You keep stating a jagd is not as fast as a track dog. This wasn't the arguement. Quit being a jack ass. Cesar was speaking of my dogs and trust me my math was correct. The Dr in front of my handle comes from 8 years in school. I have had enough advanced math classes to accomplish a simple equation (whethter you can or not). The 45.1 mile an hour was accomplished on a track with curves and all other times you quote also (if a greyhound can only run 37.5 to 45.1 explain to me as to how they catch a race horse which an run 45.5 Giuness's fastest race horse). Greyhounds can use their nose ( ask your uncle if he has actually hunted with sighthounds he will tell you they trail the hares) so they can tell if it is alive or a lure. These are not the questions you should be asking. This is what is making you a JACK ASS. The statement is "Can a Jagd move out fast enough to catch a pig". Yes. The other statement is "Can a jagd run faster than a bird dog". OH HELL YES. I have had experience with all dogs in the discussion, except the mythical non-exsistent double-suspension galloping German sheperd, and I am telling you from this experience, THE AVERAGE JAGD IS FASTER THAN THE AVERAGE BIRD DOG. This is the issue. Not track dog speeds, not your GSD, not anything else. When you can tell us about your experience with a long legged den terrier vs a bird dog (and I don't care about how fast your DD's or DK's or anything else is until you compare them with a long legged terrier) then talk. Until that time your opinion is worthless. I realize you think you are winning the debate with a kid but you are just arguing the extraneous and not addressing the real issue. STOP.
Your info is bad (gryehound being the 2nd fastest land mammal is a case in point but clouds the issue again).
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Postby bill10979 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:30 am

Doc. Doesnt sound like 8 years of extra schooling accomplished much. Your math formua needs help. As far as Im concerned,I graduated from a Public Ivy school, after attending a Big 10 school on football scholarship. I have an advanced degree in the school of hard knocks as well. A scholar Im not, elbow grease and hunger has got me where I am.

Heres another greyhound racing link with Lots of Info on speed-both Average(taking turns into account) and Top Bursts. See for yourself. Looks credible to me. They probably had to resort to a medieval radar gun to arrive at these numbers.
http://www.greyhoundpredictor.com/prediction/page2.html

From what I know about the Jagd history-3 breeds were primarily used-they Welsh, Fox and English Terrier. All were good dogs for their intended purposes. They were bred also to follow the hounds and keep up with the horses. No one insists that they were as fast as the hounds. Again, double suspension or not, their strides are 1/3 that of a greyhound, and my argument is that the speed that was given for them is much exaggerated. Ive seen a few fox terriers, nowhere near as fast as my Shepherds, GSPs or DDs. That was a credible piece by the way on Shepherds outling their gait. I have no doubt that a Jagd could catch a pig, Ive hunted them with dogs and are familiar with what it takes to find and bay one. Numbers were thrown around that look excessive based on my own experiences and that which Im finding on every racing and hunting site possible. Like I said, perhaps Kunta Kinte should be in the Guiness Book. Maybe I can submit the equation you worked out claiming a new record speed ofr a dog and be the fool for a day. I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Take your name calling somewhere else.
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Postby bill10979 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:13 am

Come to think of it Doc, your formula is probably correct, but the margin of human error in conducting the speed tests is what I question. Stopwatch maybe? Not as reliable as we think, or even close. Can be off .5-.10%. Rudimentary at best.
Ive been timed in enough 40's to know the variance. The difference in Pro camps using mechanical devices accounts for lower speeds of athletes vs. hand held devices in timed races. But I forgot that youre a Dr. with 8 years of advanced schooling so of course you realize this.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:00 pm

The jagd is a nice little animal but there is no way it can match the speed of dogs that were bred to run. I have been on many driven hunts where Jagds have been used (along with DD and Wachtel) and when a hog is bolted, it is ALWAYS the DD running ahead of the Jagd(s) with the Wachtel trailing. They do have tremendous endurance and are real gamers but they aren't built for speed.

There is no way that a Jagd keeps up for an hour stake with a well conditioned bird dog. The Jagd is not even built for full extension, being rather upright front and rear-which results in a choppy gait. A jagd will be just a speck in the rearview mirror of any self respecting coarsing dog.
Even in a short sprint, a Whippet sucks the doors off any Jagd.

Save yourself the embarrassment-there's plenty positive about the breed.
Besides, speed is the last thing that the German's care about with a Jagd.
In 30 years, I've never heard a discussion about speed and the Deutsch Jagdterrier. :lol:
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Postby bill10979 » Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:06 pm

A link for speed. I assume you used this formula used by horse guys. Learned that even a radar gun is off +-1-3%, and high humidity effects, as does tire size etc. Says a horse doesnt reach top speed for 1/4 mile. Fastest thoroughbred is 40mph, quarter horse 45mph-for a short burst. No surprise that a dog can take off much quicker and overtake a horse at top speed. http://www.thegaitedhorse.com/clock_speed.htm#1

Ive been civil in my time this entire time. I responded to what I thought were exaggerated claims of speed, ie a Jagd doing 35mph. I was then called a Jackass-in bold type, mind you. Youd think 8 years of advanced education might "learn" you a few more descriptive words and means of expressing a viewpoint besides labeling someone a Jackass. Thats an insult to the entire equine family, and subspecies of horses. What do I know, Im just a dumb Ohio redneck boy.
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Postby cesar17 » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:21 am

Bill
If you feel that the speeds that were given were exaggerated thats your perogative. I was approximating the speeds. I have never said that a jagd could match the sight hound for speed. We are also talking a quick sprint. I really like what your defense of being called a bad word was. That was elementary at best. I said that someone who swore at others needed a broader vocab in Junior High School. I am sorry if it really hurt your feelings. If your look at racing sites their races are going to be 500 meter loops whereas I am discussing a 100-200 yard straight away. There is a substantial difference in how they run. Your sources on the internet are also very basic. At most of the websites that you give they state that the speeds given are averages of certain races. You also don`t know ho modest these people could be being. I think that we just need to agree to agreeably disagree. This will allow you to stop researching racing sites and give you more time to teach your DD the difference between a Dead Fowl Trainer and a real bird. Have Fun

DrahtsundBraats
You need to realize that if we`re talking short sprints the best example you could have used is a Greyhound. A whippet has better endurance than greyhounds which makes up for their slightly slower speed.(I said slightly and that is what I mean it is only a few MPH slower) It was never stated that a jagd could out run a sighthound. It was stated that they could out SPRINT a bird dog. There is no way that they could compete for an hour stake and that was never stated. Please read everything in context.
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Postby bill10979 » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:43 am

Cesar-I understand better that you were approximating speed, it doesnt sound as easy as made it is made to. Ive seen lots of different #s thrown around for dogs, jackrabbits and other animals. It doesnt sound like an exact science because of the human element involved. Here is a link from the National Greyhound Association. They claim top, as in TOP speed, to be 45mph-I would assume this to be a burst on a straightaway. Not an average speed, mind you. http://www.ngagreyhounds.com/

It was mentioned that a Jagd could run 35mph-I saw where whippets run 35-37 and I questioned this. I will talk D&Bs word for it, having hunted in Germany- that a DD is unquestionably faster than a Jagd, as it seems to reach its prey(boar) much faster. Stands to reason. But again, Im sure they are very quick. My dog palys with a neighbors Welsh Terrier and is undeniably faster. Nice little dog though. A real gamer.

FYI-my dog is as crazy about a Dokken or ball as she is on game. Hell on wheels regardless. Maybe even more, she lives for balls and things to chase, I work her out 2x/daily. I need to put some photos of her doing her best Air Jordan in pursuit of a ball. Dont see her holding back much but thats just me. Ive seen her in full pursuit of game-cats,rabbits, suirrels and doesnt seem to be running any faster-its balls out regardless. We can agre to disagree on this one but best of luck to you and your dogs. Put some hunting photos up-love to see em. I originated this post, as I liked the treeing photos of the Mt. Lions. Bill
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Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:58 am

Interesting discussion. My computer isn't notifying me of activity. As Bratts said, small terriers are not built for speed because they are bred to have no front extension. I will have to pay closer attention to Kyles JT next time we are out but his and the others I have seen appeared to have the fast leg movement of most small terriers but I never saw the dog reach any steady stride. Ceasar, since hot bloods have just been run on track, their feet seldom hold up off the track but their speed is what makes them desireable in crosses. They have been flat tracked so long they are very prone to breaking toes out on real ground. As I understand it the double gait gives them greyhounds an extra 8 to 12 mph. Now, I may be a little over my head in this discussion on terriers and sight hounds :D you know, but as I am typing, one of Larry Bulls coursing dogs is sitting in the hallway. Pete picked him up in Idaho yesterday and got in about 11 last night. They keep bringing these dogs down here to breed to the fastest airedale you will find. This is Geronimo, 28" and 85lb. As far as the double suspension, it is usually 8 to 12 mo before they pick that up....as I understand it of course. :D What really shocked the boys up there with these crosses was the 5 week old pups fighting. They had to put on leather gloves and gently pry them loose. Heck, the dog are going to be catching coyotes primarily.

Image

Image

Airedales, because of the standard, are supposed to run like den terriers. Of course they are supposed to be 23" and 55lbs for a male also. By the way, Geronimo was clocked at Bonneville at just shy of 60mph. :lol:
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Postby bill10979 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:25 pm

Now thats an interesting Lurcher-a Greyhound x Airedale. Probably a great one too. Id assume 1 could handle a yote no problem.
That dog Geronimo looks very fast-appears highest at his withers-similar to a sighthound in physical build.
Im sure that my uncle would love one of your dogs, but the quarantine laws in Ireland are unbelievable-6 months I think he said. Not sure if that was before the foot & mouth scare or not. I just know its very tough to travel around with a dog over there unless hes from a European kennel and you can bypass the quarantine. 6 months of lockup seems almost cruel really, especially if you travel any.
(60mph Highcountry-do you think you might be stretching it? I clocked my Greta doing 62mph runnin with me alongside I75. You shoulda seen people staring in amazement, she had another gear left, but my Ford couldnt go any faster.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:37 am

There ya go stretching it Bill. Why I was just on the Ford site and it is a rare Ford that can maintain that kind of speed past the quarter mile mark without falling apart. :D Now I am not saying there are't a few exceptions to the rule. but come on. :lol:

You would make a good terrier man Bill. Never Back up and never say die. :wink:
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby hicntry » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:32 pm

Another thing to note that I run into all the time is that people are trying to put some nose in there SH crosses. A sighthound has every bit as good a nose as any other dog. In the breeding of crosses, you are ot trying to put nose into the dog with a cross, you are trying to override the genetic predisposition not to use their nose in pursuit of game. Through natural selection, the nose was less important than the combination of sight and speed for the terrain they worked. Although I haven't checked on it, I would bet the SH's have more acute eyesight than the average dog. That, coupled with the speed, the use of the nose was discarded for hunting. I have watched SH when they are not hunting and they use the nose as much as most dogs do when checking things out
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby bill10979 » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:26 pm

Found this surfing. Looks like German/Austria Boar hunt/hunters. One of the coolest sites Ive seen relating to the subject. The pics are unreal.
http://www.wildboarhunters.com/
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Postby TobyTx » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:39 pm

yes very cool site. Also its interesting to see their choice of dogs.
Cabo vom Sendero vjp 69 hzp np
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