Bill...coyote hunt

Topics on non-sporting dog breeds

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Postby terryg » Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:38 am

wasn't meant as anything serious. just a play on the word stichelhaar.

that is a term we use in this breed for a very hard coat as opposed to less wiry.

the term loosely translated just means "pointy hair"

as with our own launguage, use of terms depend on the audience and its user.

as orhunter said, "It all started a long time ago when breeds had different names and unknown ancestory."

in the early devlopment of breeds in the 1800's and turn of the century, a dogs breeding only was pertinant as far as its ability to do the job required. it didn't matter who eh was "registered" by as none were anyway and ya bred what was around.

color,size,weight,coat,furnishings,tenacity, nose, endurance, man sharpness, biting ability, fighting ability,trainability, willingness, and a host of other traits are subjective and something that individuals value on a personal basis.

the trick is to convince others you are correct and they are not in forming a breed.

in the rs, for example, there are p/s rs but only a small percentage as, though accepted, the main body of the breed, which counts all hard cores as members, scoff at the p/s regardless of its abilities, as they believe black is the only color.

see why these discussions are so much fun and so informational?

all one has to do is decide what they think are the most desireable traits, inside the general framework of a breed, and then prove it with the product.

if you are right it will become obvious just as being wrong will become obvious.

and if you look at that rs, change his coat color, shorten his beard and eyebrows which takes 5 minutes with a scissor and voila!

a dd/griff/stichelhaar/gwp/longhairedpointer/and several of those french hunting dogs only cheindog can pronounce.

:wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:50 pm

So you mean your rs will point?

I thought the RS was a much larger dog-in the 70-100 lb size. Was fascinated with the breed years ago but was unimpressed with the American bred dogs-at that time ran into too many temperament quirks.
Has it improved or are you importing dohs from Germany?
DrahtsundBraats
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:41 am

Yote

Postby bill10979 » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:17 pm

D&B- my friend worked many breeds in military and police force. He liked RS among others including Malinois-which is a smaller German Shepherd on crack. Ive never seen RS, must be rare. Think they go about 90-100lbs. SHepherds just overshadowed every working breed, including RS, Airedales, Dobes,Rotts-they generally are more handler friendly, they mature fast, very trainable, smart and good ones are hard. etc.

I used to have some great info on Stichelhaars but cant find it other than this link. Nice looking dog if you scroll down. Sad theyre so rare. Some Look like a DD, some a Griff but they are nice. Rumored to be tempered.
http://wwww.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/in ... istory.htm

Still wondering where the DD historians get their info re. Airedale in the makeup. Again, Ive seen at least 4 or 5 books that cite this. Others again say only the 4 breeds listed on this link. Any one know anything about this.
User avatar
bill10979
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:24 pm
Location: OH

Postby terryg » Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:09 am

DrahtsundBraats wrote:So you mean your rs will point?

I thought the RS was a much larger dog-in the 70-100 lb size. Was fascinated with the breed years ago but was unimpressed with the American bred dogs-at that time ran into too many temperament quirks.
Has it improved or are you importing dohs from Germany?


does it point? well, all dogs point but it was not a "needed trait" so it was not a prority. i have trained this breed to hunt pheasant and chukker, which was a minor chore as they have excellent and very relibale noses, a requirement for man search as well as drug and explosive search.

it makes no difference to the dog whether it is a gram of coke, c-4, or a pheasant and the birds were actually very easy as they give off much more scent. :wink:

this is a high "prey" breed and birds, fur bearers, and man are all prey.

our "hold and bark" would be equivalent to a point if a silent appproach was what was needed, however, we prefer a more vocal, serious, as well as refined type of "point" on our prey. :wink:

Image

it is a dog in the 70-100lb range. this is a feature that was developed when it was refined for its man stopping ability. there is some conjecture as to what was introduced but none are reliable as nobody was there. suffice it to say that it is a breeding of rough coated southern german working breeds of the day.

the american dogs are a totally different breed which has lost its man sharpness, working ability, nose, and bite along with being longer, taller, thinner, more angled,snipeier, and carrying mounds of fluffy long hair.

this was created almost singlehandedly by a breeder that dominates the american lines.

any reputable rs(distinctly different than the giant)is either imported or is the prodcut of imports with no american involved.

i imported my first rs in 85 for this very reason.

there is still a small hardcore group in the u.s. that stick to the basics but just as with the imported hunting breeds, we are a tiny minority.

the rs is a breed on par with the german rott in that only about 1000 pups are born a year in germany.

they are not a breed for everyone, not due to quirks, but because they are way too much dog for all but a tiny group of handlers and certainly not a novice. they still suffer from novice handling as they get into trouble very easily and of course it is never the person that owns the dog that caused it :roll: :roll: :roll:

they have repeatedly proven that in the right hands they are equal to any, and superior to most, of the working breeds. on a pure number basis, they even out work the revered schaeferhund(shep) which, by itself, is the ultimate compliment.

this is the reason for my interest in the dd. i see much resemblance and the german style of grading and breeding has been proven to me beyond reproach for many years.

i just see the same afflictions gumming up the works with the dd as i have seen in other breeds.

i thoroughly believe if i can find a breeder that thinks like i do, and they are out there, i can get the pup i desire.

the biggest hangup i have run into is the "testing" requirements most want to control.

when i ask about buying a dog, i inform breeders up front, i am not looking for their top show dog, i will accept only a bitch, she will be spayed as i am not a breeder and i have very high standards. i have been fortunate to work with some of the best so regular won't do.

i have offered my critique as well as my knowledge and insight to those breeders that want the feedback on what they have bred, which will be far more extensive, as well as meaningful, to their breeding plan as anything they will get from a breeding certification test.

if this sounds pompous, boastfull, or arrogant, then so be it. it is really called confidence. if a breeder choses to ignore me or sell to another it is a far bigger loss to him than me. :wink:

i have learned a lot concerning this breed here and from several of you in particular. i thoroughly enjoy the discussions and have a lot of fun at the same time. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

thanx to all!
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Suggestions

Postby bill10979 » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:42 pm

Terry, are you sure thats not a black lab with a docked tail in the photo?!
You cant see whiskers and it struck me that could be a lab/chow mix w/purple mouth. Kidding aside, What I like about this breed (and Im not a breed snob)is that there aint no show dogs-breeders strive for a standard-size, coat/conformation or at least they should, in addition to performance. Thats where it gets tricky and more to that later. With DK/Weim etc the coat isnt a factor and 1 less thing to worry about.

There are performance dogs throughout this gene pool. But 1 mans performance is another mans nightmare if it isnt done right, and why the breed has a "tarnished" reputation. SOME are a 1 ton fully equipped 4x4 and the unsuspecting owner is given the keys and is overwhelmed. Personally, I think Jon and I are in this camp together, I prefer a dog that can turn it on and off-a switch if you will. I want a companion that is very cooperative, I dont want to hack at it all the time, remind the dog repetiously the same thing it had been taught over and over and over-whether busting birds, chasing deer/cats, not come/ stealing retrieves. Its tedious. That said, I expect a dog to perform in the field and cover ground like any setter or pointer thats a real game finder, retrieve every cripple shot on field and lake, and track deer when asked. I demand obedience but require a certain independence. Instance, the tailgate drops-the dog will not move until commanded to hunt em up. Will wait 1 hr. if necessary and guard the truck. Same dog will search a lake for 20 minutes or until commanded in. Can read my eyes or mannerisms for a signal.
Ive seen high drive dogs that are/arent cooperative. I opt for a cooperative dog every time all things equal. I expect ground to be covered quickly but thoroghly and appropriate to cover. Personally Ive sen run from 30 to about 200 yds. My buddys hunted NM desert out to 400yds he said. We hunt our dogs together and styles are alike. A dog that can sit calmly for hours, A dog that will change direction when commanded in field, take hand and voice signals on retrieves etc and is very obedient, not a nuisance in the blind or elsewhere. Ive found mine to find more birds either by nose or desire to go where others wont. But for me high drive doesnt mean uncooperative, or it shouldnt. Thankfully the breeder I chose from thought the same. The Sire of my bitch made several good labs look inept around blind cripples, and was asked not to return to several hunt scrambles when teamed up with another well known DD. Same dog was a quiet, easy to control dog. Would kill deer when found alive on track as expected or cats-as in entire families at once or coons. A 90lb version of mine you see pictured that covered alot of ground effortlessly.
There are more than a few breeders doing just this-temperment, cooperation is a focus in addition to an upland machine and retaining all true versatile characterisitics. I can give you a few ideas if interested.
Ive not found them to be perfect-they heat up faster, most are slow to mature and can be soft. Takes a good handlers touch to teach and work with. But overall, I like the German system. Id think many would place to a hunting home, not just a testing home. I know I sure would. Any feedback is good be it on paper or someones opinion from experience, in addition to providing and a home where the dog an reach its potential. JMO
User avatar
bill10979
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:24 pm
Location: OH

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:31 am

bill,
Can't think of better ways to describe what I (and many) expect from this breed. The one HUGE difference that I find among most DD enthusiasts is the importance given to temperament. Whereas those grounded in the Pointer/Setter tradition will almost always discuss run and point first, this is usually not at the top of the DD discussion points (I'm sure there will be some cheap follow up shots of criticism on how DDs don't point!!). It is flat out impossible to get a dog to be a great versatile dog without this calm, focused, responsive yet high desire makeup.

I often think that the bird dog and versatile dog "camps" talk right by each other-we are of two different mindsets and traditions. This is also reflected in the dogs-I have trained and hunted behind many a wonderful Pointer which could care less who walked behind it. I have never hunted a DD that didn't want to hunt in front of the owner and keep in touch. I have seen DDs leave point out in the great plains to go find an owner and then lead him back to the birds (which a Pointer man once told me was a low desire dog!!!). If one thinks if a dog as just a tool, you'll probably be inclined to own a Pointer/Setter. If a dog is more a hunting partner for many purposes, you probably will consider a DD or another versatile. Different traditions...
DrahtsundBraats
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:41 am

Postby terryg » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:30 am

If one thinks if a dog as just a tool, you'll probably be inclined to own a Pointer/Setter. If a dog is more a hunting partner for many purposes, you probably will consider a DD or another versatile. Different traditions...


well said! :wink:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Postby orhunter » Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:25 pm

Yea but a setter owner would disagree....... I'm at it again.....
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7465
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Postby terryg » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:26 am

should have been clearer. it wasn't the breed but the "partner" comment i was agreeing with.

i have a friend with a "red setter" i hunt behind that seriously made me consider that breed. another with and english i felt the same way about. ep, brits, pp, visla, gwp, gsp, dd, labs, chessies, etc.

it is not the breed but the individual that i look at.

i have trained and hunted many different breeds that are all capable of being and have been a "partners", many of them not even known as "hunters" :wink:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Postby terryg » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:03 pm

the red sterr i spoke of is not an "irish setter".

you can learn about them here.

http://www.nrsftc.com/main.htm

if you are a setter perosn you will find this of great interest and as somebody that has hunted and trained one since a pup and for the last 5 years can vouch for the vast difference btween it and what we know is the irish setter of today.

you may even change your opinion on gordons :wink:
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Postby hicntry » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:03 pm

The hunt. First off, it was great meeting everyone. I had fun and learned a few things. First off, the high desert between 5,000 ft. and 8,000 ft is a cold SOB starting before the sun goes down. Now if the horse trough freezing is cold, think about the fact the wind never stops from about 11 in the morning on. Wind chill is really cold. Days were nice if your in the sun which is the only place you can be. Saturday we moved camp and just unloaded. Sat down for a few to get a game plan. Let Titan and Geronimo out because they had logged a lot of hours in a box. Something they have never been in for more than an hour. We were discussing plans when I noticed I hadn't seen either dog for about 5 min. Luckily, they both had tracking collars on or they would not have survived the hunt. Apparently, they lined out just like at home and went hog hunting. There are no hogs here so their accustom style wasn't going to work. They were last seen going up toward one mountain but I got not signal in any direction so the were covering ground and behind something. We went about 3 mi. up the road to get a reading of the area. No signal anywhere. We stopped back by camp and while there, a chukar hunter pulled in on an atv and said he had seen the dogs heading up Wild Horse Canyon, a mere 7 miles away. This was 3 hrs after they had left. We headed down there and found the tracks about two miles in but could go no farther. Could not even get a signal from the collars. This is where I learned a few more things. It is next to impossible to get a radio signal out of any of the mind boggling number of canyons because they don't have granite facings, like here, at home to create a bounce. There are no trees so there are also no logging roads up high. We had to get above the top to get a reading. It got late and we went back to camp. I was sure they would be there on my shirt in the morning. Went back Sunday morning but the dogs were not there. On the way back to camp, we were driving down the road checking what we could with the tracker. About 9 am., we got a good signal. Direct line of sight. They(both) were on the edge of the rim at about 8,000 ft moving around. We had to get back to camp and get things together and figured we would go back and eat at that spot. We packed up and went back but the signal was gone....vanished. Kyle and Curt headed back for town and Pete and I stayed to see if we could pick them up again. No luck and we finally headed for town also.Curt offered to stay over Monday to help look (which was greatly appreciated) but Pete had already volunteered. We were thinking there had to be a way up there to the top but we had to start early. We left Kyles house at 4:45 Monday morning and headed back. We found where they had been taking the atv's into Wild Horse and hoped it would take us to the top. It did, We got there in about 2 1/2 hrs of steady, uphill walking. We checked all probable canyons from above with no luck. They were not in that part of the country any more. The top consisted of a wide plateau with more mountains on the other side. We figured they had to have gone all the way over and into an area called Winwom, another high desert plateau at about 7,000 ft. We headed back to the truck.
We got back to the truck about 12:30 and headed to the upper end of the range to get to the road into Winwom. We finally got to the road. All these roads other than the main roads are rough, rock strewn roads. We got in about 1/2 mile and saw what looked like dog tracks on the side. It was tracks from one dog head back from where we just came.....and they were fresh. I had been searching most the time with the receiver set on channel 11 because the last time we had picked them up, they were together. I switched to channel 2 and scanned our back trail.....there was a good signal!!. We drove back to the main road and the signal said go north. We pinpointed the spot at a corral and drove in. Geronimo was laying in the mud of a water trough in the tumbleweeds. We had driven right by him and couldn't see him. He was really dehydrated. The combination of no food, no water, and really cold night time temps had taken their toll but we had him and he had come out of Winwom. we watered him good and I picked him up and put him in the truck and we headed back in to find Titan. We found were Titan had hit the road, about 2 mi. in, and the tracks were going the other way. We continued in and finally located him laying in the sage about 100 yards off the road and about 6 miles from where we picked up Geronimo. I carried a two liter bottle of water and a dish out to him and he just laid there with the bowl between his front legs and drank the whole bowl the walked him to the truck. He was in better shape than Geronimo by a good deal but the direction he was going he would have never found water in time. We did not see one car the whole day in this area. I don't think they would have survived another night in the temps at that elevation. I also learned something else. A dog can easily make it a week or more here at home because they can always find water. In regions like this, there is none and with the temps, you better find them within a couple of days. Anyway, they are home.

I want to thank Kyle and Tiffany for their hospitality and Pete for his extra time and effort and Curt for being willing to stay if needed. Oh, and Betty for staying and keeping the dogs under control at home.

Next time I will not let them go till we see a coyote. I just never thought about their style being free casting and hunting out on their own as opposed to a more controlled style of hunting. Let see, first sighting was only 8 miles away and still going. Maybe we should discuss independent dogs at this point. Totally foreign country to them. I am almost glad there wasn't any water....don't know where they would have ended up. I am darn sure glad to get them both back because they were both wearing $150.00 tracking collars to boot.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Coyote

Postby bill10979 » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:46 am

Glad you found your dogs-Id be a mess losing my dogs.I thought you were at a high elevation in CA. Was it that different? Whereabouts?
User avatar
bill10979
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:24 pm
Location: OH

Postby terryg » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:48 am

well don and the dogs both found the difference. :wink:

glad it all worked out and that's one of the reasons i never did like dales. they are purely hardheaded and don't know when to quit.

seems like dale owners are the same way!

:wink: :wink: :lol: :lol:

bill, if you go to the top of the sierra , on the crest trail at anywheer from 5-9000 ft., you can see the difference between california and nevada. there is a deviding line taht seems to run down the middle. every thing on the california side is gredd with water running everywhere from springs to snow melt streams all year long. the nevada side looks similar to the moon's surface :wink:

once you get below bakersfield it looks like nevada too. if you look at a map you will see it should have been part of nevada anyway! :wink: :lol:

one of the starnge and beautiful things we have where we live.
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand guard around the world ready to do violence on their behalf!
User avatar
terryg
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 904
Joined: Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:38 pm

Postby hicntry » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:20 pm

Boy, your not kidding Terry. One tree in 60 miles. I knew without asking there was a spring there. Kyle said some of those other bushes were trees but, like I said, they looked like bushes in comparison to what I view as a tree. Hey, it was a learning experience for sure but, since I found those two culls, I was happy.....other than the fact we didn't get to call a coyote in. Two and a half days of looking for the dogs and hoping to beat the grim reaper to them. The top of that plateau must have been close to the teens at night at that elevation and the dogs with no water and clipped to boot, it was pulling them down fast. Next time I will keep them all on the picket line for sure. :D :D
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3625
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Postby Wolfer » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:53 pm

Hey, Hey, HEY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You forget this is My Hom country and there is Lots of water. so it isnt flooded like other parts of the world But it there (if ya know where to look) And there were trees every where Just not real big trees.LOL All In all with a few minor Problems and One major . It was a great weekend.... and ya could hear chukar birds all over to bad they didnt have fur.LOL


Kyle aka Wolfer
Wolfer
 

PreviousNext

Return to Other Breeds

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest