Airedales hunting

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Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:45 am

Of course there is a use for them Bill. They are using them for tolling coyotes. As I said earlier, they are more of a varmint dog. They can get into tighter places and are more comfortable with that size game. They just are not that big of a dog. These guys are just not satisfied with the fact they can do some things well. They are trying to make a silk puses out of sows ears. The others side is true also, my dogs will never make tolling dogs because they are big and intimidating.. I don't like my dogs catching but they do it sometimes. Smaller hogs 100 to 125lbs, will be ruined if you don't get the dogs quick. The hams, backstraps and shoulders will be bloodshot. I have also spent lots of money at the vets. A good bay job accomplishes the same thing without any injuries. You ask what I expect of my dogs. I expect them to push the game and keep them from running. Much of the time they have to get in and put the teeth to them, generally working opposite sides to keep the game turning and defending. I don't like them hanging on....that is when the get hurt. It doesn't take most long to learn that. When it comes to coyotes, coons and the such, if they stand back and bay, they are of no use to me and are out of here. They will never be able to anchor a 300lb hog and keep him from running. Mind you, there are many little dogs that can because they get in and grab the nut sack and a hig will sit right down and not move. The catch is, they have to at least have enough grit to get close enough to do it. Baying 25lb coyotes and 15lb bobcats from a distance tells me they will never get close enough to something that outweighs them by 6 times to do it. I am objective enough to see all my dogs are not the same. Winchester, Higgins, and Hunter are straight up kill dogs when it comes to small game under 40lbs. They are fast and leathal. They don't all have the same ability to kill as effectively. They crush anything they get hold of. I mentioned dogs that suffer a lot of damage to the hindquarters. These dogs have all been injured. Hogs are rough and don't climb trees. All damage has been in the face, neck, chest, front legs, and front part of the rib cage. Winchester was hooked in the hip once....they were fighting multiple hogs(we killed the four that day in the one picture) That day he was thrown 8 ft in the air, broke the two canines on the right side when he hit the ground, and was severely hooked in the stomach and had to be opened up at vets to see if the intestins were punctured. Matt says, "can I hunt my dogs with other peoples dogs?" Heck no, These guys hunt rough game and they are rough. The funny thing is, every one of these guys will love you to death here at the house.....if I am here. Other people don't want their hounds trying to do what these dogs do and they darn sure don't want them to get in a fight with them. As I said Bill, this is a result in upbringing and environment.
One thing that is a must in a big game dog is the ability to take a licking and do it again the next day. Haven't been able to really see how these redlines react because they keep a safe distance. It isn't because they are excetionally fast as they lead people into believing....it is because they don't get close enough to the game. Make no mistake though, they will jump in a dog fight.....but then again, I have seen lots of dogs that are dog aggressive that won't get near a coon. Dog fights don't show grit.

The thing that bothers me, is that they are selling a bill of goods. They have convinced many newcomers that they are throwbacks to the "old" style. You know how newbies are about anything old....it's gotta be good. What they are doing is selling a bunch of pin headed dogs with downright shiddy coats and no grit as hunting dogs and they have people believing they are getting a great, old style airedale. What would you think if you were told it is a classic DD, no facial hair or hair anywhere for that matter. And you know, the old style were better hunters. You would laugh. The reality is, very few old things are as good as what there is today. It is pipedreams. Old racehorses, racecars, greyhounds, you name it, it is improved today.

Matt made the comment that his dogs will hunt a bigger variety of game than my dogs. That should surprise everyone because my personal dogs are pretty much straight hog dogs. Others use them for just about everything....except tolling coyotes. Not exactly the same as having dogs chasing coyotes and squirrels. Any thing my dogs do, they do it on their own. They don't have to have hounds and curs there to tree bears.

I will take a lot of flack over this thread, but that is life. Just to reiterate, the redlines can hunt, track and all that, it is the grit they fall short in.
Last edited by hicntry on Sun Feb 20, 2005 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:03 pm

Missed part of your post bill. I never vest. The dogs are free ranging and there is to much heavy brush to get hung on. Besides, it is hot here and the dogs cover a lot of ground. As far as pits....I will never walk a hunting dog around on a leash and point it toward the animal the real hunting dogs have already bayed. What for? the others have it bayed....shoot it. Life expectancy? when it is up it is up. Winchester is 12. He has been chewed up by bears, hooked in the stomach, hips, chest, neck, ribs, legs, and shoulders by hogs. He has been snake bit three times and has pulled and broke canines whle hanging on to hogs. I guess when it is time it is time. What do I expect or what do I like to see?? I always "expect" the worst when I am going to the dogs and I always hope for the best as in a great bay job with no one hurt. I carry staple guns, vet wrap, penecillion, antihistamenes and super glue with me.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby bill10979 » Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:55 pm

Hicntry-I would change Winchesters name to Lucky. Any dog that can survive all those breaks and snakebites is a special dog. I appreciate your input and it sounds like you know what you like, and you have high expectations from your dogs-and thats good. Ive heard that a 200lb boar is more dangerous than a 400+ boar due to agility and speed. Do you find that to be true? Do dales bark on hot scent or just on tree or bay? Are the Redlines a throwback somewhere in the gene pool? It happens w/DDs-you get a slick coat occasionally, courtesy of the Kurzhaar(GSP) blood way back in the line. Your dogs appear to be larger than the "standard" do you give up any agility in that size and what it the optimum if such a thing, in big game hunts-I can see where too big, like too small can be a detriment and dangerous.
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Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:45 pm

They told you right Bill. A 200lber can move like a snake and if he has cutters, he is going to cut dogs fast. Airedales are meat dogs, they are silent on track, they will bark once or twice when the game is jumped. If the game is bayed or treed, the keep barking, of they go silent again, the game is running and you won't hear them till they stop it.

Yes, the short coats are a throw back.....or they were till they started breeding for it in the last 10 12 years. Al said they were not a separate line but when you are breeding specifically for it, I would say it is becoming a definite line. Lets face it Bill, the redlines do fine as a varmint dog and that's all a lot of people want...or need. There are also dales that commonly run 90 to 110lbs and some even tip the scales at 130lb. I like my dogs as close to 75lbs as I can keep them. They give up a little power from the big dales but they have a lot more than the small(standard) ones. They can out run either size if they are built right. Even if the big ones are fast, they are sprinters. Pushing them all day in steep hot country won't happen. The smaller ones can't keep up with running game in timbered country with big downfall. I like my dogs 27" to 28" with a long back, and narrow chest but the have to retain the heavy leg bones and skull. This is largely why they can endure the beating they take without falling apart. Have you ever seen body builders. Many of them are bulked up with massive muscle but have very fine wrist bones. Doesn't matter how bulked up they are.....they won't hurt you if the hit you. Same principle. The heavy skull is imperative if they are going to have the power to break bones and back some prey up.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby bill10979 » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:11 pm

Hicntry-how the heck to you keep track of the dogs-remote collar GPS? If like most hunters they can cover ground quick and be out of range-do you use ATV, walk, or horse?
#2. How many breedings/yrs did it take to establish what you think is the "right" type for your hunting.
In the DD community I can say that we are blessed. There has been very good breeding practices over the last 100 +yrs and record keeping for about 30. You can find a line and breed to it, use it as you to improve any faults.
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Postby hicntry » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:12 pm

Bill, I use Wildlife Materials tracking equip. It runs about $1000 for a two dog set up. One collar goes on the lead dog, the other on a trainee just in case he can't keep up with the older dogs. I use a PU, get as close as I can where I get a good signal and it is on foot from there.

Time? About 16yrs so far to get to what I have consistently. Now I would like to develope some that are more dependent for bird work, because a lot of the dogs are really birdie. Birdwork would actually be ideally suited for the slick redlines. Grit isn't a requirement that is tantamount, the slick coat would be better for burrs and whathave you. They would work great if the people that have them would ever realize they haven't gotm and never will have, heavy duty dogs in a 45 to 50 lb dog. You have to realize Bill, most of these redline people have only been around the smaller dales and shun the big ones. It would definitley be a learning experience for most of them to watch these dogs at work. Most would not want there dogs to do it anyway. But, they don't, or rarely hunt anything where a heavy duty dog is neccessary. Even bears "usually" tree.....if they can keep up with them.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby bill10979 » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:40 pm

Hicntry-If I lived closer-you and I would do some huntin together. Ive learned a few things from your posts and appreciate your big game experience.
I have never hunted(let alone seen) Mt. Lions. Have you worked your dogs on any, and how are they for dogs-short or long chases, fighters or runners, basically are they as tough on dogs as wild pigs? Do you have to travel further to find em.
My uncle has hunted them a bit over horseback in NM. They do a fair amount of riding for the dogs to wind and track one usually.
thanks
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Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:59 am

Lions? ?? What lions??? :D :D They are very protected in California :( :(
They don't have a lot of wind...I have heard :D I don't think any treeing animal is going to be as hard on dogs as hogs. A lion or bear can kill a dog quick if the stay on the ground and fight but they just normally tree. You never get to Calif?
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Postby bill10979 » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:11 pm

I forgot they were protected. What a shame..maybe theyll get it right and open a short season on them.
Dont get to CA much. I had family in Pasadena they moved to Dallas. Closest I got is a sister in Phoenix and a brother in Seattle. I hope to "go on tour" and bird hunt a dozen states or so next yr if all goes well. Even talked to a ew guys on the board about meetin up out West. Never driven across the country and figured I can take it in and hunt/fish along the way. This is if the wife allows. I think I might fly her out to meet me, so I will probably get the ok. If all goes well, perhaps I can swing down your way and take in a hunt. Id ride along just for fun/pictures but be happy to introduce them to a 12ga 3in slug too. If we could bird hunt too, so much the better. Please keep in touch and best to you. If you ever get to OH or Midwest look me up.
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Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:51 pm

I was hoping to get to OH the 1st week of April for the National Hunt test for airedales. If you live in the area you may want to go take a look. It is mostly for birdwork and I have never been and won't be able to make it again. I just got to many dogs to go looking as a spectater. The info is at
http://www.airedale.org/
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Postby bill10979 » Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:29 pm

Thanks for the heads up. This might be an event I might be interested in attending for the heck of it, and may go in fact.
If I were you, I would take 3-4 of my best dogs and go. Im sure it will be a well planned event. Its about 20minutes East of Columbus-I know the area well. Mostly flat land, nice water and woods/fields. 1 hr. South and your in Appalachain Mountains and rugged/good grouse country. We had our annual DD meeting close to there last year. Airedales as a breed never interested me, as the ones I saw were flaky and so much different than the other breeds I worked with. But seeing a new side of them(actually performing) has me curious and a new perspective/respect. Curious what they are judged on-tracking/retreiving/flushing and what the testing entails?
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Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:26 pm

Bill, it may be interesting. My dogs are big game dogs and really have no business there. I am trying to get folks interested in working birds with them and more and more are, but, they are hunters and not much into the games unfortuneatly. Dan Wolf may take Apache and Lenape . They would be easily recognizeable from the size and bone mass (and drive if he enters them). There are some good dogs there from what I understand, but many are show dogs they are trying to hunt. If you go, don't expect it to be like watching seasoned bird dogs. It would be interesting. I would like to hear an objective viewpoint also.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Postby bill10979 » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:24 am

I enjoy watching any working dogs and would expect them to do a credible job if trained and bred properly. I would expect a stronger tracking performance and retrieving than I would a field "search" like a bird dog, but I could be wrong. Ill let you know what I see. Hopoefully Ill see some nice field work too.
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Postby bill10979 » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:38 pm

Hicntry-I found this group of hunters who hunt Eurasian Boar here in OH bout 3x/wk. http://www.ohioboarbusters.com/_wsn/page3.html

Im trying to get some info to run with them. In pics, they seem to vest up their dogs-as I will do. Im too attached to part with her and am using for breeding as she is exceptional.
I got a pup coming soon, I may use for for this-lots of run/drive in parents-too much almost-for me-as they seem to excell more in tracking then in pointing-prey drive is very high-cooperation is ok but not as good as i need for a duck dog, but tracking is exceptional w/these dogs. My observations when hunting them.
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Postby hicntry » Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:08 am

Go for it Bill. Read their site info and it is unfortuneate that their goal is to totally eliminate an invasive species, but, get in on it while you can. Let us know how it goes.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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