Just another day

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Re: Just another day

Postby Kyle » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:21 pm

hicntry wrote:Bill took quite a beating Kyle...withoiut his cheer leaders. I got the strangest emal this morning. Time.3:20

"Dear Don Turnipseed,

Someone has tried to log into your account on Working Dog Forum with an incorrect password at least 5 times. This person has been prevented from attempting to login to your account for the next 15 minutes.

The person trying to log into your account had the following IP address: 68.117.112.98

All the best,
Working Dog Forum.

Funny thing is, that IP comes from Wisconson....where two of his cheerleaders are. Gotta wonder which of the two it is.... eh Kyle. Bet Christie can tell. Now, you were saying?


Yes. It was I. I went to that sight when you told us to check it out but you need to be registered just to view the threads, I could not register from the computer network that I was on at that time so I took five guesses at your password and did not guess right so I did not get to see the thread.
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Re: Just another day

Postby Kyle » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:23 pm

hicntry wrote:Jack is home and doing fine. Vet said he had to open the wounds up because something was bleeding way to much. Found and artery that was cut. Jack is doing fine but the vet got to me for a huge Elizabethan collar of which I probably have ten here. Since I am not paying him for 30 days I let it slide and just added it to the collection. There is just no way Jack can even reach the spot to lick it. I am watching to see if he even tries. He said that had the tusks gone in straighter and punctured the chest cavity, he wouldn't have made it to the truck.


Sorry to hear that. Those boars are dangerous. I hope the young dogs heal well.
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Re: Just another day

Postby Kyle » Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:42 pm

hicntry wrote:Actually Jon, if you want to beat that one again, go start your own thread in the appropriate forum. I am showing how a tracking/trailing dog is started here. No leash needed.


So far you are doing everything the same way every versatile hunting dog used for blood trailing is started. The only difference is many of us do not have hogs to learn on. Once the versatile hunting dog is an accomplished tracker it is ready to begin the leash work on blood. When this is completed you have a finished game recovery dog. What you are going to prove in this thread is two things (1) That when the versatile hunting dog is ready for our final step in training it is already considered a finished dog by you. We have tried to explain this to you in the past but you just won’t hear it. (2) Catching hogs although it is very dangerous it does not require very much talent. You have already caught a herd of hogs with two green dogs. If they had just a little more desire to bay hogs you would have killed a hog with these very green dogs.

Carry on. I am just pointing out facts. I am not trying to start an argument even though it might appear that way. In my opinion this is the most constructive thread you have posted to date. I just wish you did not have the chip on your shoulder for versatile hunting dogs.
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:52 pm

Jon, Kyle thank you.

About 1 o'clock,, about an hour after Jack ate and had his medication, he was puking his food up. I called the vet and asked them if this was common with this medication. They said not normally but all dogs are different. If it continues after his next dose, discontinue using it and the will prescribe a different one. Well, about 3 Jack came upstaires and crawled up next to me and was licking my hand and his breathing was really labored. I could hear air bubbles moving constantly since he was laying next to me. I checked his tongue and it was off white. I called the vet right then and told him to clear a space because I was bringing Jack in and needed an exray because he acted like he had bloat.
Jack walked down the stairs and out to the truck on his own. Got out of the truck and walked into the vets on his own. They took him right in for an exray. Next the vet comes out and said he was bloated but the stomach didn't get turned by the impact from the hog. The impact had ruptured his diaphram and he was bloated because his stomach had slowly moved from the abdoman to his chest and pinched off.. I told them to put him down and went back to see him. He looked up, licked my hand......and died.
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:55 pm

Kyle wrote:
hicntry wrote:Actually Jon, if you want to beat that one again, go start your own thread in the appropriate forum. I am showing how a tracking/trailing dog is started here. No leash needed.


So far you are doing everything the same way every versatile hunting dog used for blood trailing is started. The only difference is many of us do not have hogs to learn on. Once the versatile hunting dog is an accomplished tracker it is ready to begin the leash work on blood. When this is completed you have a finished game recovery dog. What you are going to prove in this thread is two things (1) That when the versatile hunting dog is ready for our final step in training it is already considered a finished dog by you. We have tried to explain this to you in the past but you just won’t hear it. (2) Catching hogs although it is very dangerous it does not require very much talent. You have already caught a herd of hogs with two green dogs. If they had just a little more desire to bay hogs you would have killed a hog with these very green dogs.

Carry on. I am just pointing out facts. I am not trying to start an argument even though it might appear that way. In my opinion this is the most constructive thread you have posted to date. I just wish you did not have the chip on your shoulder for versatile hunting dogs.
Kyle


Your pointing out bullsh!t Kyle. I have no chip on my shoulder about "good" versatile hunting dogs. The fact is, if they won't take a track and keep coming back to the handler...they are not very versatile. They will search for a bird without coming back but won;'t search for fur. That is not versatile in anyones book.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Just another day

Postby 44magnum » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:34 pm

Sorry to hear about your dog Don. That just plain sucks.
"Live like you ain't afraid to die; and don't be scared, just enjoy the ride."
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:32 am

Thanks 44. This was tougher than most. Jack had so much potential it makes me sick. I'll get over it in a few days. Life goes on so they say. Kind of reminds me why I don't make die hard pets out of my dogs....but, me and Jack had some good times.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Just another day

Postby Kyle » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:41 am

Don
Sorry to hear about your dog. I hope the other one fares better.
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Re: Just another day

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:50 am

The impact had ruptured his diaphram and he was bloated because his stomach had slowly moved from the abdoman to his chest and pinched off.. I told them to put him down and went back to see him. He looked up, licked my hand......and died.


First things first....very sorry to hear you lost a young promising dog....it always hurts.

The fact is, if they won't take a track and keep coming back to the handler...they are not very versatile. They will search for a bird without coming back but won;'t search for fur. That is not versatile in anyones book.


We have repeatedly told you that Vdogs (of several breeds) are used to drive game (and corner it if they can) in Europe. They don't come back to the handler...typically the handler walks after them on the ground as you do with yours, and listens to the "singing" to determine if they are trailing or if they have a hog at bay. Many hunters use the dogs individually or in pairs to limit injury...as you know with more dogs, they are more likely to close and be injured. Dogs are started individually in pens on captured wild hogs (which you denigrated.."gritless bayers") to determine which dogs are most persistent but not foolish. Young dogs that charge in on the business end of a big hog are not long for this world, as you found out.

In fact, Don, I see no difference between DD and your Dales. I find it comical that you pronounced Luna vom Ahornwald unfit for hog work because she was punctured much like your dog. Smart dogs "worry" and harass a big hog til the gun arrives. Then they go home whole and do it again tomorrow. They learn they can drag the little pigs out or hold down the yearlings.

The reason we seem not to be able to agree is that you apply different standards to the same evidence. I grant that Vdogs in Europe don't have the conditions to run 10 miles....they would all wind up road kill. But there is no lack of grit or desire...if anything, there is concern about dogs closing foolishly on dangerous game. The whole idea is to go home with your dogs.
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:18 am

Your a piece of work, Jon. you put your spin on what I say and always have and then say let's have an intelligent conversation. You really want top cover this same ground again in this forum?? Kyle stated quite clearly that a DD will not track but a very short distance before coming back to the handler. Bill stated quite clearly that they won't track and have to be taught to track AKC style. They got your dogs Jon. You must be mistaken when you say you start your dogs like mine because mine do track and no dog should have to be taught to track....just what to track. Since your dogs are willing to do a lengthy bird search, but have no desire for fur as they should have. I would have to say you are breeding bird dogs Jon, not versatiles by most peoples definition. If you don't like that. Start your own thread.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Just another day

Postby wisgrouser » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:42 am

Sorry to hear about Jack.
"Gun goes up, bird comes down...sometimes."
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Re: Just another day

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:31 am

Your a piece of work, Jon. you put your spin on what I say and always have and then say let's have an intelligent conversation. You really want top cover this same ground again in this forum?? Kyle stated quite clearly that a DD will not track but a very short distance before coming back to the handler. Bill stated quite clearly that they won't track and have to be taught to track AKC style.


We have explained ad nauseum why blood tracking is done on lead....what happens to dogs in this country that are thought to be chasing deer, Don? were you asleep when DDguy told of a dog that was shot baying (as trained) over a found kill?
You understand what a driven hunt is in Germany...when dogs are on the ground....these dogs don't come back to the handler...but if you need to believe that, knock yourself out. Dogs are started on hare...and the best will circle it....on a dead run...they are not on lead. I know you consider a mile or two to be a short run but again, those are the conditions for Vdogs in Europe. May I remind you that your dogs were in sight when this hog was discovered.

There is no spin. You're dog suffered the same injury that many dogs of other breeds do...it was inexperienced, hadn't been started (in one of those worthless hog pens) and paid the consequences..and I'm sorry for that. But, I did not hear you say that the dog was unfit for big game because of the chest puncture...yet the Ahornwald dogs you pronounced as unsuited for the work...that is all I'm saying...again, you move the goal posts as it suits you. Both dogs went in on the front end of a dangerous hog and both paid the price...one survived....those are the facts of the matter.

To be honest, I'm somewhat baffled that you would turn out Magnum with a "green" young" dog and not have a weapon at the ready.
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:35 am

Go start your own thread and tell everyone there what you think you know about hunting hogs Jon.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Just another day

Postby Kyle » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:12 pm

Kyle wrote:Steven
The DD is a versatile hunting dog not a hound. They will track a rabbit just like a beagle but they will not abandoned the handler and stay after the rabbit like a beagle will. They are used to flush out rabbits or hares and line them out. Once this is done they will come back. When tracking a bleeding hare they will stick longer in anticipation of the retrieve. The two most common ways to hunt hare with DDs is to walk through cover and hope you get a shot when the DD flushes the hare or some dogs point them and you work the point. The other is driven hunts were you post standers and drive the cover with DD to make sure you flush them all out.

Unless it is legal to use dogs to make deer drives where you live you don't want them chasing deer. When you are recovering wounded deer it is important that the dog is trained to follow the blood. If the dog chases deer indiscriminately you will have problems recovering wounded game. It is common to have several fresher deer tracks crossing the track of the wounded animal you are trying to recover. If your dog switches to these you will not find the deer you are trying to track. That is why the blood tracking training is so important.

As far as problems, that depends on the hunter and the dog. Some upland hunters get pissy if a dog smells anything other than the bird they are after. If spending twenty seconds watching a dog trail a bunny out of sight does not bother you then there will not be a problem. It does not take long for a DD to line out a hare and get back to hunting with you. There are some dogs that are unbalanced in there tracking. Chasing bunnies is a problem with some DDs. It all depends on how much passion the dog has for tracking and chasing.

One thing that does not get talked about much is how many birds DDs point after they have tracked them down. Some bird dog purists are not satisfied to have an outstanding bird hunting dog. They want the dog to look a certain way while finding birds. I mostly hunt ruffed grouse in WI. Sometimes when I am hunting the grouse have fed along the trails and are done moving. My dog will constantly be putting her nose to the ground and trailing off on a grouse track. She will track the bird through the cover and then point it at the end. This is really effective for grouse hunting but some people do not want to see a dog with its nose down. They want to see the dog head high tearing up the cover. As you can see some of your questions are a matter of preference.
Kyle


This is what I said to a guy who was wondering this.

Steven wrote:All this said, I've heard some say that training for tracking furrred game will create problems when trying to bird hunt . . . the dog getting off on a deer or rabbit. It seems we jump a lot in the areas we've pheasant hunted. Has this been an experience of those who have trained for fur tracking or is it easily manageable through training to be able to call your dog off a track. I harken back to my beagling days and remember how hard it was to call those little suckers off a track, though! They didn't quite get the training this dog will because the expectations were different, and often we were content leaving them for a few days to return and pick up later. Usually we'd end up with enough dogs left to make a pack and keep hunting.

Thoughts, please . . . . . Thanks.


After chasing hundreds of hares with no reward other than the thrill of tracking, the time the DD will spend tracking a hare while bird hunting keeps getting shorter. If you go out in the winter with some friends and make hare pushes they will pick up on it and go farther but they will not stay after them as long as a hound. Nor will your airedales. You said...

hicntry wrote:The dogs are wasting time here but learning all the new scents like ground squirrels here at the old corral. At this point, it doesn't really matter what they are scenting because they are learning what that nose is for out here. They are about 70 yards out here

The dogs are about 250 yards out here and you can just see one moving into the brush. As I drive through the area, they just roam and explore all the new scents. One day soon, they will find a hog , I will kill it, and suddenly that one scent will have real meaning to them. Not a good idea to be shooting ground squirrels for them.


So it seems you understand dogs putting more focus on what you are hunting. Just to clear the air if you took a DD and hunted it only on big game it would track and pursue big game as well or better than any other non hound breed. Let's face it Airedales are not hounds or versatile hunting dogs. I have never hunted with an Airedale but many big game hunters have tried crossing hounds with Airedales in hopes of improving grit. It always turns out to be a failure and bear hunters in WI. have given up on the idea. There is no improvement in grit and the crosses can’t track for crap. You would have a hard time convincing me that Airedales are adequate trackers.

I was just following this thread when you made this statement.

hicntry wrote:Actually Jon, if you want to beat that one again, go start your own thread in the appropriate forum. I am showing how a tracking/trailing dog is started here. No leash needed.


Don't bother crying about your thread going off topic. You can't make references to others and expect them to remain silent because this is your thread. Bill Athens took your thread off topic with this post.

blathens wrote:As an example of misinterpretation. Don used the term "lesser" dogs several times in some of the previous threads that got a lot of reaction from some of the DD guys thinking that Don was referring to their dogs and DD's in general compared to his airedales. I viewing some of the older threads I found that Don used that term to refer to some of his own dogs that were not the alpha or dominate dogs in his pack. So, the term was not used to describe a breed but to describe the position of any dog in comparison to an alpha. At least that is how I understood it to be.

Bill


So if you are not happy with the way things are going chastise him.
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Re: Just another day

Postby hicntry » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:41 pm

You guys are a piece of work. Up in the general folrums you turened every discussion into airedales. I come down here to "other breeds" and now you want to rehash the DD's. No point in it guys. No matter how you twist it it has already been gone over. Your not going to get a different answer by doing it again. Jon giving advice on how to train hog dogs is laughable. This must be why Jon is known as the "thread trasher". Add Kyle to that. LOL Internet hog hunters. Where are the moderators? Now you guys are crying that Bill started it. Bill made one post. You two have been sniveling ever since.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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