Switching?

Retriever breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:49 pm

Well, I have lost cripples that the dog let go in order to pick up another bird that was shot as it was coming in. Can't say that it happens often, and I'm pretty sure there are better things to train on first, but I agree that a dog that won't switch is more desirable and will put more birds in the bag. Remote drop ....then command a switch? Maybe I'll work on that one next. :D
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:46 am

Bruce, in the retriever world there was a great dog once named San Joaquin Honcho. He, at the time, was the youngest NFC ever at 2 1/2. When his health went and Judy retired him, she used him to plant blinds for the other dog's. She'd run the blind in reverse and have Honcho drop the blind in the correct spot, then run the other dog's to pick it up.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:04 am

Gonehuntin - When you said "There is NO excuse EVER for a dog to DROP a bird it's carrying and go for another bird." I assumed by your emphasis on "EVER" that you meant "ever," not "just in training". Apparently my bad. And I'll admit I've not yet hunted the country end to end, and likely now won't. But I've made it top (excepting Bruce's state) to bottom and hunt some pretty diverse stuff right here at home. And with multiple guns in a relatively high volume shooting area, ours is often a, shall we say, "more interesting" scene than the view from a two-man backwater blind. Suspect my vantage is as broad as most - just not as tunneled by mainstream trial oriented training as many.

In any event, I thought my post's opening line pretty clear, "Fwiw, though I won't allow a switch to a dead bird or badly disabled cripple, I've always let my guys switch to escaping cripples." But perhaps it wasn't clear enough. I'd not condone the type of long distance, maybe this, maybe that switch you write of. Can't imagine one of my adult dogs doing it, either. (Am currently starting to toss occasional diversions for a five-month-old for that very reason. And we'll soon enough be flying live homers past his returning nose.) Per the scenarios you're proposing, the dog would have no way of knowing whether the distant falls or fly-offs not yet down are able to get up and go, so my mutts would watch them down, or away, and complete their current retrieves.

Bruce - I've long thought about incorporating a "drop" command, as it would on occasion be helpful for them to switch when they aren't so inclined, but my guys have so far managed to work it out on their own well enough that we've not bothered. Indeed, most seem to develop better judgement about what they can safely drop than I would often be afforded. But if switching, as I condone it, was costing me birds, I'd certainly be handling it differently...
User avatar
Rick Hall
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 4:36 pm
Location: SW Louisiana

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:53 pm

Not so Rick; I was trying to help him iron out a training problem, or what I percieved to be a training problem.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:19 pm

I've been working on a drill where I send the dog for a mark and, just before she gets there, make her sit and then handle her to a blind off to the side, etc. The dog doesn't like the drill, and even though I set it up by making the blind a sight blind at first, etc. it's still upsetting her to have to do this (can't wait until I have to run through this one with a live flyer!).

I'll probably screw up all the other tasks she's doing so well and then get to the test as a basket case. But, this drill, as awful as it is, seems to have some real practical hunting value.... the dog doesn't mark the fall very well, or the dog's on a retrieve and a second bird goes down that looks crippled, etc.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby crackerd » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:02 pm

Bruce, careful there or you'll have a popping problem pronto. My mantra--which came by way of probably the most successful amateur trialer and wham-bang waterfowler on the East Coast--is: *Never* handle on marks. Cheating singles, yes, that's handling on a mark, but it's also a drill. Bird-boy blinds will accomplish the same objective as what you're out to do with stopping the dog and handling away from a mark. Also has practical application afield too--as do all handling drills.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 660
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:38 pm

MG,

Thanks. Yes, I can see the risk of creating a popping problem. I send her for two or three uninterrupeted trips for the mark to every handle, hoping to avoid it.

The drill seems designed to enforce strict obedience under extreme suction pressure and things seem OK on the drill field at this point, but with a shot flyer at a test I'm pretty sure sure the dog will do the same thing I'd do under similar circumstances.

I'm not sure I know how "bird-boy blinds" do the same thing. I'm thinking they are blinds set out by an assistant - he leaves a dummy and move a ways away and the blind is run, and he leaves the next dummy where he stands and then moves farther the next time, etc. I guess the "suction" is the last blind run?
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:03 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:MG,

Thanks. Yes, I can see the risk of creating a popping problem. I send her for two or three uninterrupeted trips for the mark to every handle, hoping to avoid it.


Every time you let a dog return to a mark without another mark or some kind of diversion between, encourages a dog to return to an old fall. Then you have another problem.

Bruce Schwartz wrote:MG,
The drill seems designed to enforce strict obedience under extreme suction pressure and things seem OK on the drill field at this point, but with a shot flyer at a test I'm pretty sure sure the dog will do the same thing I'd do under similar circumstances.


To me, your drill makes no sense at all. I would NEVER send a dog for a mark, then handle it off the mark. I WOULD teach that dog secondary selection, and I WOULD work it on the handling drills I described above, until that dog never reaches down to pick up a bird unless I use the whistle to OK it. You can also use an old drill called the "5 step back drill".
1) Establish a known blind 100 yards out. Also cue the dog to the blind with "dead bird" and the mark with "mark". 2) Put a mark half way to the blind that lands slightly off line to the blind and run the dog on the mark. 3) Now run the dog on the blind after it has picked up the mark. If the dog hesitates at the mark, push it through with the collar. 4) Next shoot the flyer, no the dog off it and run the blind. 5) Finally, and in my mind not a necessary step, is to shoot the flier, run the dog, and as it reaches for the flier, nick him and push him through to the blind. This is a very advance drill Bruce, but if you open it up a little, it's a great drill for any competing dog. It's also one they very easily comprehend.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:32 pm

GH,

Well, the drill I was describing is one advanced by Evan Graham and he calls it the "Definitive Casting Drill." It's simplest form is a long mark and you stop the dog at various places along the way to it and handle to an identified pile off to the side. Of course the mark is run alone first and the handling comes on repeats. Like you and MG said, it might encourage popping (and maybe all the criticisms associated with repeat marks and repeat blinds to same spot, etc.). It's in his Smartwork II book. I'm not being critical of it, and I did it enough to know the dog will handle through it if need be, but don't think I'll use it as a mainstay drill.

I agree that "no-ing" off a mark and sending for a blind has merit, both in testing and in hunting, like your "Five step back drill." That should help with "poison birds". Thanks a lot.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby Kiger » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:50 pm

If I "no" the dog off the mark, didnt I just "handle " it on a mark????

There may need to be a distinction here. Switching at certain venues may not be a disqualifictaion if you can stop the dog and get it back on course.
Where a full on switch will send you home.

And while Ill avoid handling on marks in training, it is also useful to set the dog up for a switch and handle him to the original bird. If you just use passive methods theres a good chance hell switch at a test. I want to "de -switch" teh dog as much as possible.

In hunting we know that pup will almost always want the last bird down. Well what if the first bird was a cripple? do you let pup go for number two because "we never handle on marks" ????? I dont think so.
Kiger
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:26 pm

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:33 pm

In the HRC rules the dog hasn't switched until it has dropped one bird and picked up another. If the dog establishes a hunt for one mark, can't find it, and visits another mark and finds and retrieves that bird then it hasn't "switched", and is not marked down. I think AKC views this differently.

Along the same vein, if a dog establishes a hunt for a mark and is in the "area of the fall" and you decide to handle, then it isn't counted as a handle, and you aren't marked down. If, however, your dog has to be handled to the "area of the fall", then it is considered a handle, and is marked down. In either scenario, once you start handling then you need to handle all the way to the bird.

Two weeks ago I ran at a HRC test at the Finished level where there was a tripple and a blind about ten yards up wind of the first mark thrown ( the blind was "hot" - put out before the marks were thrown). The judges said you could pick up the four birds in any order you wished, but if you let the dog search for the mark and it came up with the blind then you're out, and if you decided to run the blind before picking up the mark, then you need to handle the dog away from the mark or you're out ... and they said it needed to be evident pretty early on which way you decided to handle it.

Because the scent from the blind was blowing right towards the mark, the handlers would have problems either way. Those who chose to pick up the mark before the blind had problems with the dogs scenting the blind first; and those who chose to pick up the blind first had to send the dog on a different line than it would have chosen to pick up a mark that the dog knew was there and wanted prettty badly.

Strange test maybe, but pretty technically challenging. Also a non-hunting example of where working on those drills can pay off.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Kiger wrote:And while Ill avoid handling on marks in training, it is also useful to set the dog up for a switch and handle him to the original bird. If you just use passive methods theres a good chance hell switch at a test. I want to "de -switch" teh dog as much as possible.

In hunting we know that pup will almost always want the last bird down. Well what if the first bird was a cripple? do you let pup go for number two because "we never handle on marks" ????? I dont think so.


Just be careful with this type of thinking. In the 70's Rex Carr believed that if all dog's were taught primary selection, @ never being sent for the last bird down, you'd win more trials. There were a lot of dog's that walked on marks as a result of that and a lot that were stimulated so severely, they could never compete. All of my dog's have always been secondary selectors, but primary........never.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:02 pm

OK, I'm confused. I thought primary selection was the dog making the choice of which mark to pick up first, and secondary was me making the choice. I think I've heard it both ways though.... what's the final word?

Although getting the last bird down is most often best, I've recently run into situations where it's better for me to make the choice as to which bird to pick up second and third, rather than the dog.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Postby slistoe » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:03 pm

Here is the definition according to Dobbs. It is online and was the easiest to retrieve "Doing the test this way calls for a trained skill known as "primary selection." Primary selection means that the handler decides which bird the dog will pick up first, rather than going with what dogs typically want to do--which is to get the last bird down first."
User avatar
slistoe
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1176
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 11:35 pm

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:51 am

That's the way I learned it. If you give a dog his choice on a triple, 95% of the time he'll go Outside, Outside, Inside. The inside, or center bird, is usually the stinker. Trainers learned long ago that the most efficent way to beat a test was with a dog that was at least a seconday selector. With primary, you could turn the retiring gun into a regular mark.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Retrievers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron