Breaking Ice and Retrieving Divers

Retriever breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Postby Birdhunter » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:59 am

I haven't found the heat to be that big a problem. The only time this year that it affected a hunt was while dove hunting when it was close to a hundred and the dark wire coat was a real disadvantage in the sun. But she still retrieved my doves for me. I just took her to the nearby creek and let her swim and cool down. Ninety percent of my hunting season is in cool or cold weather. Around here, with the exceptiong of squirrel hunting and turkey hunting, most seasons are in the late fall and winter. That same dark wire coat absorbed and retained the heat from the sun between ducks. My dogs also sleep outside where the temperatures frequently drop down to single digits in the winter. I am glad they have coats that will keep them warm at night. I like the personality better in wirehairs. All the pointer crosses have made the shorthairs personality more like that of the pointer. Less attuned to the hunter. More independent and more likely to hunt for themselves like a pointer. But to each his own when it comes to personality. I just like being able to use the same dog all year for anything I hunt.
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Postby greenjeans » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:39 am

Birdhunter, Where do you live that you have a quail season that runs into Feb. dove hunting, and single digit temps? Sounds like Minn. but they do not have dove hunting or a feb. quail season. Maybe you should move there so you know what real cold is. My guess is you live in Kansas or Oklahoma. If I`m right you do not know what cold wheather or winter even is. :D
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Postby Birdhunter » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:48 pm

I admit we have mild winters. Every summer I wish I lived anywhere north of here. But freeze up is freeze up. Our lakes never freeze to the point that you can drive a car out on them and there will never be ice fishing here but they do frequently freeze over by the end of hunting season. There were many duck hunts ruined this year because I couldn't find open water to hunt. Seasons are adjusted to the climate. We really don't even get started here until the middle of November. Our season runs until February 15 on quail.
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Postby KJ » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:27 pm

I won't lie and say GWPs are good in the heat but every opening weekend of chukar season when temps are in the 70s I hunt mine with a couple shorthairs that have are UT prize 1 and 2 dogs and have NSTRA points and they don't hunt any harder or longer than my dogs. Actually, mine run a fair amount bigger. It's the indivdual dog that matters. On average I do admit shorthairs take the heat better but on average wirehairs take the cold better. I have a black roan GWP and she sucks in the heat but she is great in some other aspects. If GWPs can't run and don't have style, why are they placing as much as any breed in the northwest field trials? There are some big name shorthair kennels like Dunfur, Lemshlog or Quicksilver but you don't see them taking any more placements than wirehairs from Sure Shot, Cascade or Flintlocks kennel.
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Postby larue » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:59 pm

kj,,I have to agree with you here,,there all great dogs in all breeds,,
so when people talk in general terms of a breed,they are doing the breed some injustice,,,there are good wirehairs,and good shorthairs,,
lets talk about the good examples of both,,instead of trying to find the poor examples,,my gsp's love water cold or not last year in south dakota in nov,,my blaze dog got separated from me and was hunting with another group,,I called him,,and he swam the 100 yards or so without hesitation,,it was a cold windy day,,yet he jumped in without a thought,,
no bird here just a command,,,and this is a dog that finds birds
out on the grasslands when it is 100 degree's,,,and yet cold water is no problem,,love of water is important to me,,,as is style,,nose,
and stamina,,and the ability to just plain find birds,,,
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Postby Brown Dog » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:19 pm

Birdhunter,

Would you like to explain what you are basing your opinion of shorthairs’ personalities on? I know you like to bash the breed, but surely you can’t believe that the majority of shorthairs have been crossed with pointers. Why, in your opinion, are they less attuned to the hunter? Have you ever hunted over a shorthair? Do you actually know what a shorthair is? I’m beginning to wonder.
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Postby ME » Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:04 am

Well Edge,

First let’s deal with your inability to see the #’s and %’s clearly.

If there were 12174 GSP reg. in 2002 and even though these weren’t the same dogs tested there were 216 dogs test in NAVHDA that means that 1.7% of the akc reg GSP’s were tested.

There were 1240 GWP’s reg. in 2002 and 85 tested for 6.8% being tested.

So a greater % of GWP’s are tested in NAVHDA than GSP’s that is of AKC reg. dogs. So we in fact have a better idea of the consistency of the GWP in versatile testing than we do the GSP by a factor of 4.

If you look back at years past and do the #’s you will see that with the exception of this year the GWP’s have about a 2% greater rate of passing the UT than the GSP. This is consistent from year to year. This year being the exception when it was 76% for GSP and 73% for GWP. Your idea or thinking that looking at the whole and then find a % rate for passing is some how absurd when it has been consistent from year to year. This is the best indicator of accuracy not the total # tested as you would like to believe. The greater the number the better or more accurate the % will be. But this only takes effect up to a certain point and the actual % rate is reached and thus testing 5 million dogs will not change a thing. Thus statisticians figure the minimum # needed to get an accurate rate. Even though only 85 GWP’s were tested it was 6.8% of the dogs’ reg. for that year. Compared to 1.7 % of GSP’s, so under your thinking you would need to have 827 GSP’s tested to get the same % of the gene pool to see which dogs are more consistent.

But we can’t do that now can we, so we have to go with the ones tested.

And then the GR comment, you know full well that 1 is not a large enough # to base a % on and so the EP and SP #’s mean nothing.
“None of the % mean anything on the breed especially when the numbers are way off.”
The #’s are only way off when you don’t have a large enough sample to get an accurate measurement.
If you were not GR bashing then sorry I accused you of it. It just seemed patently obvious to me that of course the #’s were off because too small of a sample was used to get an accurate % and anyone would know that.
But as for the GSP and GWP the numbers aren’t way off. So you can’t use the breeds that don’t have big enough samples to give an accurate % representation for the breed as a reason for discounting those that do!



I stated before that most of the US is a warm weather climate so GSP’s will be more popular, but being more popular means little about being versatile.

Now on to your other stuff, you want to give everyone a big pat on the back because they made it to the invite. You would be a great publik skool teacher. “Johnny, you didn’t pass the test, but nice job for taking it.” Why would you make such a statement about the obvious they are at the invite so they got a PZ I. Everyone is equal so you want to pat them on the back for that. No losers, only winners at the invite right? No, now you see who did their home work and who didn’t and whose dog had the best run of their life to get the UT I and separate the best from the also rans.

And now to the “ME a bad Christian”. Making a mistake about %’s and not stating the %’s as fact to begin with is grasping for straws. But knowing that one was higher than the other was the point to begin with. Remember we are talking about DOGS here and not issues of morality. If you think that I can remember every post or care to go and check everyone you are mistaken. You were correct when I added the UT from my previous post. It wasn’t really all that relevant to the point I was making though but if it gives you satisfaction fine.

PS please try to keep your post short and to the point. You either type fast or are long winded or I read too slowly I don’t know which. :wink:

Have a good and Godly day.
:D
Last edited by ME on Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Birdhunter » Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:13 am

ME those are very good points and relevant. You do have to factor in total registration numbers not just compare numbers of dogs competing in NAVHDA. That takes into account all the shorthairs that have lost their versatility to compete in pointer trials by being crossed with pointers. And just by looking at the sheer numbers of the breed when you take the cream of the crop and compete shorthairs should blow away the competition just by the laws of averages.
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Postby Hunters Edge » Sat Mar 08, 2003 9:19 pm

ME

Qoute "First let's deal with your inability to see the #'s and %'s clearly."

Answer Which time the one when you just used the invite and gave the wrong percentage.

Or is it when you incuded the UT and Invite.

Or was it when you included both and went further back and Larue had to give the correct percentages he came up with.

You keep giving different ways to come up with percentages and you got me confused.

In your own words "The #'s are only way off when you don't have a large enough sample to get an accurate measurement." Next you are implying you should have 827 but because all we have are 216 we are going to use 218. Accually these are very contradictive, yes you do have me confused.

Whats ironic is you trying to post % on the registration #'s that are puppies. What age is the average dog tested in NAVHDA's UT? What age is the average dog tested in the Invitational? Would it be safe to say the % should be on the age of birth (that particular year registered) of the dog in question because each year this number of registration can fluctuate or should increase. So if a dog is 5 years old and the registration for the breed 5 years ago was 8000 do you not think this would make a significant difference. Instead you are using dogs that are 3 years to 9 years old that are tested and comparing to 2002 registration which in a nut shell the 2002 registered is more than likely much higher than when they were born also the dogs will not be tested until 3 to 9 years from now. Now also add that AKC registration many if not most do not even know what NAVHDA is, let alone UT, VC.

I see no way you can % a breeds versatileness out of a game. Thats right a game, you can call it a test, trial or what ever it is still a game. Now I am not ruling out the importance of games (test/trials) but they are a far cry from actual hunting which you have made plainly clear in your previous posts.

On the issue of GR. In the paragraph that the original sentence was in I do not see how anyone could take it for bashing. On the otherhand like yourself that use only a portion of a sentence and took it away from the paragraph which intailed the substance of % than maybe. If your looking for forgiveness your going to have to ask someone with higher authority because personaly after this thread and all the lies I do not trust or believe in your sincerety.

On the paragraph that starts off with "Now on to your other stuff" I believe we covered this once before. You denied saying anything to the contrary but it implies all the other dogs that did not get a VC was a dog that had the best run of their life to get the UT 1. You sure you do not want to sell your dog, it would seem with that train of though you would want to. I personally believe all the dogs recieving the prize I are capable of achieving a VC what prohibits this could be tempermant but what is usually the case is the test only being one day and every two years. So a VC is a good dog having a lucky day, the same goes for UT 1. The system is not the best which you seem to state it is about achieving a standard on that particular day while under evaluation. Your more inline with " now see who did the home work and who didn't" but even if you did your homework it does not garauntee the dog to pass. I am sure you have heard to err is human so now it seems you think that dogs are better than us as far as making errors. Also many times it is handler error that caused a dog to fail in the invite or UT test. Well I think I am trying to explain something to someone that will never understand, I hope one day you will.

I never said or wrote "Me a bad Christian" to say that would be to judge you and I am not one to judge you. On the other hand all of us will be on judgement day we all will have to reckon with our sins, including myself. Please take a look at the post and read exactly what I said, the whole sentence. I had seen a post with you citing scriptures and so after you posting in this thread I was a little shocked. I believe the bible says something about or similar to "Thou shall not bear false witness upon thy neighbor".

Now you even critisize my posts and ask to "keep them small and to the point" It is kind of hard when you accuse me of something or say you did not say something when you did and I have to find where you said it. To be perfectly clear you do not have to read my posts or actually even better I think I made myself pretty clear, I see no reason to continue posting on this thread. You obviously will come up with some new way of % or change back to what you said or whatever (grasping at straws). I also see no need to keep explaining something that you should allready know (and are trying to keep this thread going for no apparant reason).

You once said "The majority will be wrong the majority of the time." I do not know if this is true unless you are the minority???? I do know that this the basis on which civilazation is based on and our country as well.
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Postby ME » Sat Mar 08, 2003 10:12 pm

Well Edge,
I think it is clear if you can't move on from the adding the UT thing then you will not be able to understand %'s even though I did say that the reg. dogs were not the same dogs that were tested but used them to make a comparison of % of the gene pool. So to make that comparison you would need 827 GSP’s as you feel that the GWP #’s were to low to make an accurate comparison, which I showed was not true. :wink:

Good dogs having bad days may account for those dogs who got a 180 and up but didn't pass the invite. But dogs getting 91 or 133, 115 had the best day of their life to get there. I was told that there will be some dogs there that have no business being there from people who have been there already. Which is why I was glad to see who I was braced with. The scores show that 37 dogs had a failing score in desire to work! I think that proves my point it wasn't good dogs having a bad day. Just separating the best from the also rans

Your inability to follow along with the post and the numbers given and there significance shows that yes I am wasting my time.....:lol:

The best to you and yours…I’ll see you on judgment day…read 1 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 2-4
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Re

Postby blueblood » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:56 am

Holy Crap, I just read through this whole forum. It is the same thing said time and time again. I have seen dogs from both breeds hunt cold water. I have seen them hit the Idaho desert after sage hen and sharp tails. There is more variance within a breed than without. I have settled on kurzhaars simply for the versatile reason. There are some really good
American lines as well in versatility. I enjoy all dogs but I do feel the wirehair can handle cold better just because of simple common sence. I also feel shorthairs are more stylish and fun to watch. ME if shorthairs that are stylish, false point alot, I feel they need to be ran on wild birds more. If they can find old sent they certainly can learn to work a REAL bird.
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Postby ME » Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:37 am

ME if shorthairs that are stylish, false point alot, I feel they need to be ran on wild birds more. If they can find old sent they certainly can learn to work a REAL bird.


It is that the dog has a poor nose which is why it false or unproductive points. IMO Its nose should tell it in a second that there is not enough scent there, for there to be a bird. But from looking at the style or intensity of the dog you would think that the bird was right under its nose...It ain't just GSP's either I seen GWP's and PP who do the same thing. It is a nose issue.. That, I think comes from the FT's..
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Postby KJ » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:49 pm

ME,
I agree that false pointing has a lot to do with nose but it can also come from a young, inexperienced dog that has a ton of pointing instinct. Some young dogs with a lot of point just love to point. Those dogs do just need to get on some wild birds and they are fine. If a little experience doesn't fix it, then it's probably a nose issue.

Why do you think this comes from FT breedings? An unproductive in a field trial is highly frowned upon, as it is in any testing format. PPs can't even run in field trials so where did they get it?
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Postby blueblood » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:05 pm

ME,
I guess the point I am trying to make is if a dog has gotten to the point to where it astablishes a point from scent, and is unproductive from that scent. It lets me know that dog needs more REAl bird time.

I had a short hair who false pointed alot. He was field trial lined dog. But the more wild birds he was (not the pigeon launcher deal) put on he learned how they worked and really what it smelt like to have a REAL bird pinned.

Just to set the record straight. That was the first and LAST field trial dog I will ever own. Hyper knuckelhead!!! But not only that, I feel they run at a very unpproductive range for my type of hunting and ideal type of dog.
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Cold H20 retreives

Postby bill10979 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:07 pm

Not sure what grenjeans is smoking. The air must be thin out there. IMO I have owned both GSP and DDs. They are very similar, but have distinct differences. The GSPs run well in cold temps-no dispute. But running is different than sitting and retreving all or half day in a cold Midwest Great Lakes-bone chilling-cold-say 10 degrees and water of 34 or so. My GSPs just couldnt do the reps after a while. It made me ashamed to ask them to work under those conditions. The DDs sometimes go BACK in the water and enjoy the swim and balmy temps. I have had trouble getting them out at times. Mine have thick dark coats. They love cold weather/water and ice. Agreed on WH or DDs and heat. Anything over 45 and sunny is hot for mine and she has to be watered and watched if hunted over 3 hours or so and then cooled downw/water. Mine melt in humid/sunny conditions over 75. I wont run for more than 1 hour in these temps. Under 45 my DD ran as hard as my DD-ran better under 30-could hunt longer-better endurance w/a slower pace but covered as much ground. My DD is a better (natural) retreiver, there is just more drive there to find and bring back. For pure bird work the nod goes to my GSPs-mine had better range than the DDs. For Hard Cold-water waterfowl and versatile upland-the DD wins hands down. My DD will also track better too for deer/birds etc. There just seems to be more desire or love to track with nose down and work out a scent. My GSP was more of an air scent hunter. JK about the smoking greenjeans. They are both great dogs but with different strengths. Thanks
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