Breaking Ice and Retrieving Divers

Retriever breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Postby ME » Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:26 am

What do you mean NOW I add UT? I said that from the beginning…

Duh,
I never questioned the quality of his dogs. :evil: I said that the two breeds as a whole. GWP's pass the invite and the UT at a higher % rate than GSP's.



Also before you added UT tested dogs you made it sound that if you did not get a VC the dog was not worth feeding it any more. With that philospy or train of though I feel sorry for you and more for your dog. You want to sell him?


And what thread have you been reading? Have you been drinking? Or are you projecting? Where did I say this?


Well you have to set a minimum of the number of dogs tested in any statistical analysis. One is not a broad enough base to do the % on and you know that, so who is grasping at straws.

I would think that 85 dogs are enough though. And if your thinking is to be agreed with then the % would go down and down and down and down with the # of dogs tested until it hit near zero. That is why you set a minimum # to get the correct %. And if you use the total you have available then you will get the most accurate % rate of passing. But what you fail to see is that the % could go up even higher for the GWP before it reaches 216 tested.

I could look at 2001 also and get the % for that also or just add the GWP #'s to this years until I get 216 and stop and see what the % is :lol: Face it the % doesn't lie. That is the only reason that I chimmed in, when you were blasting birdhunter and saying GSP's were soooo superior, I knew the numbers for versatile tests don't bear that out...Have a nice day :lol:
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Postby Birdhunter » Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:01 pm

Neoprene helps but it doesn't equal things out. A good coat under a neoprene vest can really handle almost anything.
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Postby Birdhunter » Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:17 pm

I wouldn't put to much reliability in test scores. They can be very deceptive. Unless you do most of your duck hunting in spring, summer or fall when the tests are conducted. You better know how the owner or breeder really duck hunts if at all. I still think the vast majority of NAVHDA dogs are primarily upland dogs with the occasional jump shot duck thrown in.
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Postby DK » Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:05 pm

You keep stating things about NAVHDA dogs...hmmm. Some time back I invited you to the OK NAVHDA training days and didn't get a response. Care to come out and see what it is all about? Meet some of these folks that you don't think hunt or duck hunt and ask them for yourself? www.oknavhda.com is the place to go for information.

Oh, and here is a picture from one of the three club organized duck hunts this last season. This pic was in Dec. so there was no ice at the time, but you will notice 1. its on public land 2. three of the dogs pictured are GSPs and 3. all of these gentlemen are NAVHDA members

http://www.oknavhda.com/ga-images/ga-120802/Red%20Slough%20(13a).JPG
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Postby Rick Hall » Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:19 pm

What I'm wondering is so what if "the vast majority of NAVHDA dogs are primarily upland dogs with the occasional jump shot duck thrown in"?

What the heck's that got to do with their potential to do all manner of other things their masters choose not to?
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Postby Brown Dog » Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:39 pm

DK,

Don’t worry Birdhunter, those can’t possibly be NAVHDA members in that picture because, as we all know, they don’t duck hunt. I’ll bet those are “real duck hunters” (whatever that means) with GWPs shaved to look like shorthairs (just for a good laugh I guess).
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GWP-GSP

Postby gohntng » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:10 pm

I have raised GSP's for 27 years, and now have GWP's. I'm reading this thread and it's mentioned that GWP's pass at a higher % than GSP's.
I'm not into slinging, but I have magizines laying all around, "who don't", opened up to certain articles I can quickly scan while in the winter Blaa Stage.
In the PDJ Jan/Feb 2001 issue. It has a article on the NAVHDA 2000 Invite. I would of skipped it but there is a small brown box with the breeds entered, and # passed.
GSP- 60 entered----24 passed
GWP- 23 entered----5 passed
Small Munsterlander- 4 entered----1 passed
EP- 3 entered----1 passed
My math is horable, so I won't try to figure out the % of all these.
I will quote a couple sentences, then go hide.
[quote]A man from India came to see the quality of the NORTH AMERICAN GERMAN SHORTHAIRS. He must have been impressed with the fact that 77% of the dogs earning a VC title were shorthairs.
I'm not going to pull up every invite to check, but this one is not conforming to what's suggested. The writer had to be to be biased, he wrote most of the article on GSP's. The RAT!!
I mentioned I had GSP's for a couple of years and changed to GWP's. I will not go back to GSP's for my own reasons, but I know for a fact, there are breeders in Idaho, that have some of the toughest GSP's for cold water work.
I had some of the best hunting dogs, in GSP's, but I also have GWP's that I think, have taken another step up, in toughness.
Interesting, but both of these breeds that I have owned, hit he water hard, pointed, retrieved (feather and fur), tracked, adjusted their range according to conditions, and were wonderful companions.
I have my choice, but no way would I, or could I bash another breed, I know someone would be up to a challenge. GSP's have great breedings, and so do GWP's.
My web site show's my pick, but not because one dominates the other.
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Postby Rick Hall » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:44 pm

Well, there you have it: By actual passing percentages, not only the GSPs and Munsterlanders but even the English pointers were proven more versatile that the wires ;}

Just stirrin', guys, just stirrin'. Kinda enjoying all this my "versatile" is more versatile than your "versatile" stuff.

(Don't know that my own mutts are more versatile than anyones, just that they're versatile enough ;}
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Postby larue » Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:45 pm

go,,the man from india talked to me about my max dog,,but he was
not,and is not going anywhere,,a couple of his comments,,there
where he hunts the dogs must cross logs over high ditches,,,
and the dogs are not sent for retrieves,,(they use local kids,,)as
the dogs are valuable and there are snakes,and tigers so the locals are
are used,,a little different view,,
i did the math for you,,gsp 40 percent,gwp..21.7 percent
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Postby Hunters Edge » Wed Mar 05, 2003 4:35 am

ME

What I have found out in past experiences is that the truth hurts. Usually when someone lie's or try's to cover something up or mislead someone they are wrong and know it but tries desperately with contradictive statements etc..

1 "Where did I say you lose NOSE with style?"
ANSWER: page 4 your 1st posting on that page reads "Dogs especially GSP's that have the intense point and 'style' have always seemed to be false pointers non-productive. Now not all are but nose must have been sacrificed for style somewhere down the line."

2 "What do you mean NOW I add UT? I said that from the beginning...and what thread have you been reading? Have you been drinking? Or are you projecting? Where did I say this?
ANSWER: page 3 your second posting on that page "Lets not dispute the GSP's can hunt, but if function is the reason then lets look at Invite%. GSP's passed at something like 17% GWP at 33% so which is more versatile or trainable or whatever?"

I see no mention of UT, I can not see where UT are included. Does anyone see where UT is included on this paricular post, if you do please let me know where. I also believe the % are wrong or misleading they should be GSP 38.5% and GWP 47.4% a difference of 8.9% the other way you were implying shows a 16% difference which is almost double the number you gave of 17%.

The GSP is at home running in NAVHDA, NSTRA, AKC Hunt tests, AKC field trials not only to they hold there own many times they are the leading influence. Does the GWP have a strong mark in all these field? NO they do not. This is not saying the GSP is sooo superior it is stating fact and not grasping at straws and not lieing or misleading. ME before this thread I thought you were a practicing christian.
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Postby ME » Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:14 pm

"Dogs especially GSP's that have the intense point and 'style' have always seemed to be false pointers non-productive. Now not all are but nose must have been sacrificed for style somewhere down the line."

"If you breed for "style" in pointing that is fine but if that is what wins a FT and the dog with less style but a better nose doesn't win which will get the breeding work. And thus you get stylish dogs that false point half the time."

FT have influenced the GSP breeding. In a FT if I am correct, a dog can find only one bird and win because it has style. My conculsion above only seems logical. A dog that finds 5 birds but doesn't have the style will loose. Which dog do you want to hunt with? I know which one I want to be behind. Which dog will get studded out?

"Lets not dispute the GSP's can hunt, but if function is the reason then lets look at Invite%. GSP's passed at something like 17% GWP at 33% so which is more versatile or trainable or whatever?"

I didn't have the VHD with me so I was going from memory, yes it was a guess which is why the phrase something like was in there. That doesn't delute the point though GWP>GSP in pass %. Which after all was the point, no pun intended.
You should also be glad that I added the UT because then the % came down to 2% instead of the 8.6%. Yet you failed to notice that didn't you. You were to busy missing the points and just trying to divert attention.

you said "Also before you added UT tested dogs you made it sound that if you did not get a VC the dog was not worth feeding it any more. With that philospy or train of though I feel sorry for you and more for your dog. You want to sell him?"

Now you talk about misleading and contradictory statements, could you show me where this occured?

I believe you may be breed blind from your comments.

if you want just a little better versatile dog than one you have a GR. LOL


Aren't you a NAVHDA Judge? I wouldn't want to run a Griff or a GWP in front of you. You don't seem very objective but if I had a GSP I would drive all the way to your chapter just to test.


What is a PRACTICING Christian anyway in your book?
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Postby KJ » Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:03 pm

Hunters Edge,
There are GWPs that can hang with shorthairs in any 'game' out there. If you want to see GWPs that point with style and can run with anything off horseback or foot then you should get out more and start heading west. There are a ton more shorthairs but there is a huge variety in shorthairs as well. You can't take a pointer with its tail docked off and say "see, shorthairs are the best in field trials" then take a german import and say "see, shorthairs are the best in the water and in tracking, too". There are GWPs that have placed in AF championship stakes, too but if that dog doesn't do the water then I'm not going to say its' the best dog that ever lived. I think if you take the dogs that can do it ALL well, the breeds are very equal pound for pound with each breed having a slight advantage in certain areas.
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Postby Hunters Edge » Thu Mar 06, 2003 2:15 am

ME,

"Also before you added UT tested dogs YOU MADE IT SOUND THAT IF YOU DID NOT GET A VC THE DOG WAS NOT WORTH FEEDING it any more."

When your only concern was on the dogs that passed. You basically ignored everyones contribution and rewards just to get there. You did not put any value on the dogs that were there or the ones that were invited but did not elect to run in the invite. You were baseing your more versatile or training or whatever on only the dogs that passed the invite.

None of the % mean anything on the breed especially when the numbers are way off. On the qoute you took only a portion of it, it should have read "Now I plan on keeping my dog but if you want to use your way of thinking I think you out (ought) to get an English Setter, Spinone and if you want just a little better dog than the one you have a GR. LOL" This quote if you understand the english lanquage was in the content of why your percentages of a breeds performance is incorrect it is the dogs that were tested not the breed in general. The % for the invite were ES 100% , SP 100% and the GR 50% and of course the GW 47.4% that is why if you want just a little better dog a 2.6% increase I was LOL on your idea of judging breeds performance by % and how you assume the significance of it.

Now I think acting like a christian is more than just honesty but your complete lack of honesty on this thread is apparent. Writing things then writing you did not say that and then asking me to show where you said that, does this sound familiar. Also writing that I wrote something, and I see nowhere that I ever wrote GSP's soooo superior. You also used false % and then when pointed out state you guessed on memory( which if this is true it means you were not even sure the GW was higher but posted it any way). You also come up with a ridiculus idea on an analysis with it being so out perportioned it looks good for your breed in question by comparing 78 tested dogs to 19 tested dogs or 216 dogs to 85 dogs in a arena that has a 70% failure rate, it is a joke. The next thing is you expect me to believe your % and posts yet you continue to out right lie or give false information. I believe Larue's % of GS 40% and GW 21.7% but I once again do not believe this is a fair evaluation of a breed by just a % of a particular test. Sorry but I do not buy in to it. Your still chasing straws and even had to Qoute "and what thread have you been reading? Have you been drinking? Or are you projecting" all of this part of the quote is a deregatory statement especially when you did indeed state what you claimed you never wrote. " I said from the beginning" was your exact words you wrote.

No I am not breed blind or kennel blind, just observant, the big question are you? Never mind I allready know the answer and I do not beleive a word you write because of your previous times you did lie on this thead.

No I am not a NAVHDA judge. Why is that how you got your GWP prized or titled?

12174 GSP compared to 1240 GWP registered in the year 2002 with AKC.

I believe that these may be some of the reason why the GWP is not as popular.

For one there is no consistency on coat, furnishings. There are GWP that look like GSP others have furnishing but still quite similar to the GSP on coat , why's that I wonder? Other dogs have the coat but no furnishings or very little. Now the coat not length which I described is also varying degrees but the same goes with the shorthair medium harsh etc. you know what I mean. This could be a reason than again maybe not.

The GWP can not handle the heat they do one of two things the become plodders or if they have enough stamina and desire they run. I still like to see the run the only problem is they are not useing the nose the tongue is off to the side of the mouth and practically dragging on the ground. Because of this I think this also losses its popularity in warm climates, they will lean to other breeds that can handle the heat more or easier also hunters in northern climates that hunt early season may as well turn to other breeds that handle the heat better. By this yes some are sold in the south but would think more for pets or show not hunting but this is a theory on the above is what I have observed.

I also believe tempermant have discouraged many from buying the GWP have witnessed many a aggression fights in parking lots and at break away. I also have witnessed lovable dogs that want to be petted and to give a few kisses and act playful to other dogs. Sadly most will not take the time to do research and because of fear for their children they pass or decide on another breed. Now in away it stands to reason because dogs do not consider children as humans more as a subordinate. I do believe if they do the right research they can find a breeder that has dog with the correct tempermant. Tempermant therefore could also be an inluence in picking a different breed.

I have seen a lot or majority of GWP with a short range. I have seen only a few with a medium range and speed. I have hunted over, and or tested/trialed braced with or observed in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconson, Minnesota, North Dakota and once in Ontario. This I believe is a majoy reason why they are not as popular. I have seen their performance improved in the last 10 years and more importantly 5 years but maybe I am starting to see just the good ones lately. Of course I only have a limited exposure to the breed I have not owned one.

Also the breeds performance on style and intesity is lacking they have a tendacy to stand and flag and even go to the point of wag for some with the mouth open. If you watched a few you know what I am talking about. Now I have seen some good GWP not only intense/style and with run and range but they are few and far between this may also be the reason why this breed is not as popular.

Coat or hair length as mentioned earliar can range widely and some most would take for shorthairs from a distance or did not notice the whiskers (furnishings) The long hair which is predominate and is seen or thrown mostly can which you mentioned earlar be a pain in the butt. Not so much as you implied for cleaning up in the house but more the time needed to remove burrs or even to bath the animal a good rule of thumb is 30 minutes after each hunt to remove burrs and/or thistles. Now this is on all long haired dogs so Brittany's , English Setters, Gordon Setters to name a few also have long hair and I am not sure how many of these breeds were registered last year but I know from personal experience they are out their so I do not think that this is a major influence not to own a GWP but it may.

I think with all these games out there NAVHDA, NSTRA, AKC Hunt tests, AKC field trials etc... the shorthair does real well, which I have mentioned. It could be because many even many on this board have advised going to watch and in so doing decided on the breed they seen and where satisfied with and also seen what they are not statisfied with as well.

KJ Your probably right, I have'nt seen it but I am in a small region and what I posted above is mostly what I see with a few exceptions and those few exceptions are indeed a joy to watch and/or hunt over.
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Postby Birdhunter » Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:24 am

You say that wirehairs don't handle the heat as well as shorthairs, many of which are white. I have to agree with you. But the common sense flip side of that is that shorthairs don't handle the cold as well. A dark coat with longer hair is an advantage there. I am not in the slightest bit impressed by scores in NAVHDA events. They are NOT real hunting. I went back to my all breed hunting dog books and found the reading very interesting. Maybe the authors don't know anything about dogs but I would imagine some do. Without exception they gave the edge to wirehairs in the water and particularly in cold water. Your lies don't really matter because nobody is really buying it anyway. Go through hunting books, magazines, adds and articles. There aren't any shorthairs being used for duck hunting but there are plenty of wirehairs being used. I will go on waiting to see these great shorthcoated dogs on a duck hunt. I won't hold my breath. Nothing will change in the future. I just feel real sorry for any sucker that might believe your lies and buy one of these slick coated dogs and really expect it to be able to duck hunt in all weather.
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Postby greenjeans » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:36 am

EDGE, You really covered all the bases with you last post. I have seen the exact same thing and would agree with you on everything you said. The only place the WH has an advantage is in the cold water. I feel the WH is more suitable for this task. BUT, it is a hinderance any were else. I have hunted with WH in heat above forty degrees and the tongue is always hanging out, thier nose suffers because of the coat, they get hot and need to breathe through thier mouths just to keep going. I have hunted with WH in 0-twenty degrees and thier tongue is hanging and they are panting hard. While in the same situation my GS is running bigger harder and can do it while still using his nose. This is not limited to my dog, I have seen it a hundred times. Cold weather does not effect the short haired breeds as long as they are hunting and moving. The colder the better for my dogs. They run thier best at zero and below and never show any signs of being cold. They love it.
I agree that there are some dandy WHs out there, but they are so few and far in between that the chance of getting one is a huge crap shoot.
STYLE,, I have covered this before and still hold my ground. WHs have very little style as a breed. I don`t hold a lot of stock in style, I like it, but as long as the dog finds birds and does it gracefully is all I care about. But I have seen too many WHs that stand over game with the mouth open and the tail waggin and have even seen several dogs bark at the game while standing there with the mouth open and tail waggin.
Not my idea of a bird dog and apperently by the numbers ther are alot of others that feel the same way.
While I do not dislike the breed I just can`t stand to listen to the breeders and owners BLOW about how good these dogs are. They have no reason to be ashamed but they have NO ground to BRAG.
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