Breaking Ice and Retrieving Divers

Retriever breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Postby Brown Dog » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:44 pm

ME,

You might want to be careful about challenging the quality of Hunters Edge’s dogs. He took two of them to the 2002 Invitational and passed both. Whether you think the Invitational is too easy or not, passing both dogs you enter is no small feat!
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Postby ME » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:43 pm

Duh,
I never questioned the quality of his dogs. :x I said that the two breeds as a whole. GWP's pass the invite and the UT at a higher % rate than GSP's.

There are more GSP's but numbers mean little. THere are more labs than any other dog so does that mean that they are superior? or the reason there are so many is function...

He may even have GSP's that I would own if they hunt like he says but I like the look of a GWP and a lot don't so they choose a GSP.

Dennis,

reread the post you seem a little lost. Dog's especially GSP's that have the intence point and "style" have always seemed to be false pointers non-productive. Now not all are but nose must have been sacrificed for style somewhere down the line.

In a test of dogs noses (outdoorlife mag.) the best was a english pointer the 2nd was the german DD and it was a close second. But GWP's or DD's don't have style for FT as a whole with some exceptions. But they got the noses :wink:
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Postby Hunters Edge » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:47 pm

ME,

I do not understand you for one state you choose the GWP because of looks and others choose the GSP because they don't. Now would that be an assumption on your part, just because you picked your breed on looks mean others do or did as well?

What I have a hard time understanding is you clearly feel that you loose nose (false point) when you gain style and intensity. I would like you to explain on many of GWP that I have been braced with and hunted with as well were standing with the tongue out and the only way you knew they were on point was the tail wagging showing excitement and usually it is a little more than just flagging. Now my dogs have to honor that, and sit there while no bird is produced. So please tell me what the GWP gave up to false point, or lose their nose?

While your at it how many dogs failed to back because they were faced with the same scenario, and again not just a little flagging? Is it the handlers fault for anticipating a rock solid intense point or the dog they were unfortunate to be braced with?

You touched on labs and to be perfectly honest for what I have seen the lab would be my first choice once again if I were interested in a flushing/retrieving breed and it is the performance, temperment, desire, biddable and all the qualities they hold which are considered function. On the same note which made them popular and have caused considerable damage in senseless breeding pratices which have caused many health problems/concerns in the breed may also happen to GSP or other breeds, hopefully not but it or they could follow the same path.

I have also witnessed GWP that I have been braced with and hunted over in the early season seem not to tolerate hot weather well at all. Could this be yet another reason why they would choose another breed, especially if they hunt early season or are located in a warmer climate?

I do not know if you will see my dogs at the next invite?
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Postby ME » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:24 am

Where did I say that you lose nose with style? :x

I say that some don't pick a GWP over a GSP because I hear many say they think they are ugly. The GSP with the short coat shows the muscles and lines nicer. And yes the USA is more warm weather hunting than cold.



Why do people buy the car or truck they have because of looks.. It is human nature...If the GSP was everything that you say then they would pass at a higher rate than the GWP.
GWP's still pass UT's and Invite's at a higher % than GSP's, so what could that mean? :wink:

Yeah and my dog has to back a dog that consitantly points with style and intensity yet there is no bird. Now my dog dosen't want to back because the dog is a faker...

It is your fault for not antisipating the poor point. I have my dog stop when another dog is just whoaed in the field now so it has nothing to do style and intensity it is a command. I see GSP's that flag plenty and still get MH passes.
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Postby Hunters Edge » Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:17 pm

Me

If your going to continue following others on this board that actually keep making contradictory statement I will cease having a discussion.

You asked "Where did I say you lose nose with style?"

Answer: I believe it was your previous post, you wrote " Dogs especially GSP's that have the intense point and (style) have always seemed to be false pointers non productive. Now not all are but nose must have been sacrificed for (style) somewhere down the line."

Which not only did Larue comment on how wrong that statement is and what is usually the cause of false pointing but I and others have seen many a dog with out style or intense point (stand or point) a non productive find including GWP. When this is brought to your attention you seem to deny writing anything about nose being sacrificed for style!!!

If were going to have a discussion I believe or hope both of us will be honest and think it not only a virtue but an attribute to both of us. We are not picking trucks we are choosing a breed that will not only fit into our family lifestyle but will be an asset to us in the field, marsh or woods. I do not think many hunters care what kind, color, etc.. dog he is hunting over as long as it is an asset not a hinderance while hunting. Even birdhunter claims he picked the GWP on function not looks. Another thing for the record a true conditioned dog in proper weight you should not be able to see his ribs if anything the last rib as it is tucked in for the stomach, other than that it is too thin, check with your local vet if you think I am giving false information.

You keep mentioning the invite test that you claim to be too easy, yet you failed. I think the test speaks for itself if roughly 70% failure rate surely proves to anyone it is not easy. I think alot of failures can be attriuted to who you are braced with just as it is in AKC hunt tests. Second it is not hunting but a test and should be looked on as one. You gave a couple of scenario's which make sense in a hunting situation but not in a test format for instance you were interested in decoys on the shackled duck. I wonder especially years ago when lead shot was used if you happened on a roosting pond or puddle and came back to it an hour before shooting hours end to get birds already coming to the pond. Or if this might have happened to you get all your stuff got to the site and forgot your waders or they fell apare in your hands (dry rott) you could go home or set theire with out decoys, I know what I have done in the past. Now whether you have or have not hunted without decoys (pass shooting or jump shooting) is inconsiquental. The important part of the testing is being accomplished without the use of decoys and if decoys were used it could cause injury, death or unfair distraction. Let me explain many of the shakled ducks came right in front of the handler because the retrieve turned into a search/chase. Now in a hunting scenario the hunter would dispatch the duck if it came withing shooting distance and the dog was not in the line of fire. By allowing the duck to swim into or through the decoys and not dispatching it the dog swimming through the decoys the second time with scent may check out many blocks and or get tangled in the line doing so. All of this the duck is getting further away and the scent trail becoming weaker. This setup is completely wrong for a true hunting scenario and would possibly be unfair to other dogs that did not have this disstraction because during there run or retrieve the bird never came on the side of the handler. So in testing it is not at all the same but it should be set up that every dog has as close of the same scenario as possible and it also should be set up with safety in mind as well. Now certain distractions can come up but the set up should be ran to elliminate any that could or can be avoided so each dog is evaluated under the same circumstances or the exact same difficulty or ease depending on how you look at it.

If you notice at the UT level the retrieve threw decoys the bird is dead it is not a search/chase. Most including myself dispatch crips if possible not for the ease of retrieves but to make a humane kill while hunting. Now in some cases this is not possible or it is downed in areas we cannot see (cattails, etc.) and this is why the dog is an asset. So in away it is set up as close to hunting as possible remember hunting and tests have been described or compared to as apples and oranges.

In the scenario you described for the honor or the retrieve on water. I did not have a chance to see so my first dog was just set up before the other dog with minimal noise or command. I did have time to see it done with what you descibed before running my second dog and though great if their going to use it so will I. So I gave the second dog a good harsch sit command and maybe a hand command and maybe even a few others to boot but of course I did not train that way. Now it may have been because I did not train that way or that I believe the dog in the retrieve was a dog she knew. Well she sat fine through the shot , fall, retrieve but before I released her, as the judges told me to get my dog, her back end came up, not up to a stand but was off the ground a couple of inches the test was over before this happened as I described but as a handler the dog did not do what I wanted but I did opposite of the norm as well, of course it could be she was coming out of heat. So in hunting yes your not going to put that much emphasis but also most hunters care less and would keep their dogs tied others would if the dog attempted to break would voice a command no big deal but in a test the dog is not tied up, and you can not make another command and I believe others failed that portion of the test as well so it may have been easy for you and your dog and thats great but it still does not delude the level of the test because this is only a small portion of the test it matters how the dog does overall at every portion. I and many others see no big deal its a test it is not hunting if you want it changed go through the motions and bring it up for discussion at the general meeting or judges workshop see if there are enough individuals that agree with you and that goes for the decoys at the shakled duck as well. Though I want to make it clear I disagree with you on both and have given numerous reasons why above.

What I do not understand is how you can complain about it not reproducing actual hunting in shakled duck retrieve and honor through the retrieve in water but have no complaint of using pen reared birds on the field course. Now is hunting pen reared chukar any thing like hunting wild chukar, especially in that semi flat area? Or is close to any wild birds you would hunt? I do not think so but its as close as we can get it and so is the rest of the invite test with a few exeptions. Understand would you have all that dog scent and old bird scent and crowds of people children talking etc. etc. for distractions while your dog is honoring through a retrieve or retrieving a crip, while you are hunting? I personally do not think so. The dogs are hyped not only do they feel it from you but in the atmoshphere and they are dealing with secenarios that many have not had the priviledge to train under ( crowds all the commotion vehicles going along the two track, dogs whining and barking in the back ground, some dogs are in heat etc. etc. etc.).

GSP's do pass at a higher rate they are versatile, FUNCTION. You are limiting a breeds performance by one test when it is in your favor individuals look at all when choosing a pup and you know that as well. Like I said let look at the whole picture not only the invite, ut, upt, na in NAVHDA but AKC Hunt test MH, SH, JH also NSTRA, AKC field trials walking and horseback because you imply it is trainability lets look at dogs used for law inforcement, pulling sleds in competition, agility couses. I distinctly remember someone bragging about his dog becoming an MH and how hard it is and no flaws so why leave all this other valuable testing out when choosing a dog. Also if what Simple Simon posted is true only 2percent of sporting dog owners test/trial there dogs. Most individuals are more impressed with hunting over a breed of dog and know of someone owning it rather than a test/trial. Test/trial dogs may be end up purchased by the individual but it was knowing the breed because of association which influenced their choice in chooseing a breed in many cases.

Lets face it majority of hunters do not put the training in that is needed in a UT, Invitational, MH, SH testing, field trials etc. format they are mostly meat dogs. In retreivers most do not get to the level of testing as seasoned level as well. Sorry to say, but that is the sad truth of the matter. Now I do not have any facts just what I have noticed or observed over the years and if the 2 percent info is correct it would seem appropriate.

Again in 2002, 12174 GERMAN SHORTHAIR POINTERS were registered through AKC, in the same time frame about 10 percent of that number 1240 German Wirehaired Pointers were registered. I think these numbers clearly speak for themselves.
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Postby ME » Mon Mar 03, 2003 2:01 am

GSP's do pass at a higher rate they are versatile, FUNCTION. You are limiting a breeds performance by one test when it is in your favor individuals look at all when choosing a pup and you know that as well. Like I said let look at the whole picture not only the invite, ut, upt, na in NAVHDA


This is a false statement....In NAVHDA, since it's creation,GWP's have passed at higher rate. Look it up :wink:

Why not AKC FT Nastra? They are not about VERSATILE they are about field only.

Some aren't judged to a standard but run and style win or number of birds found on the parking lot wins.

If you breed for "style" in pointing that is fine but if that is what wins a FT and the dog with less style but a better nose doesn't win which will get the breeding work. And thus you get stylish dogs that false point half the time.

Style should be garnishment on the food not the main course. :lol:


And if you have 5 or 500,000 all saying the same thing that still doesn't make it correct. The majority will be wrong the majority of the time. :lol:



My dog didn't fail because the test was so tough. If it was tough it would mean a double marked retrieve of 70+ yards with a blind to follow from the same place. See the difference :x


I do have a problem with the using of the birds in the field. There should be 3 speices of bird not one.

The honor of the retrieve is a JOKE :lol: and you know it.

And just because those who are setting up the test don't know how to place decoys so that the dog won't get caught up in them it is not a reason to not use them.

Yeah they do it to be fair :lol: to all the dogs :lol:

I have watched as the SR judge throws out the decoys in 2 ft of water with 8 ft of line out and the dogs got caught in the line. ANd then the dogs wouldn't go out to get the duck. If that is all it takes to stop the dog from retrieveing then the dog is poor. I was going to do it but NOOO only the SR judge can do it.

I watch those entered in the last invite line up at the blind to do that before the shackled because they were afraid that the dog would not know what to do.

If you put decoys out at each site then the dog wouldn't go according the setup but on the command and the smart dogs would do fine. But those would be GWP's :wink:
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Postby Birdhunter » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:40 am

I didn't mean to anger people by stating the obvious. Until now nobody has developed the shorthaired retriever. A good lab coat is not short smooth hair like a shorthaired (pointer). To tell you the truth I was amazed how long, thick and coarse a good lab coat is. Flatcoated retrievers don't have shorthair. Goldens don't have short hair. American water spaniels, curly coated retrievers and Irish water spaniels don't have short hair. Chesapeake bays don't have short slick hair. Out of all the "retrievers" ONLY the german shorthair has a short slick coat. Do you think maybe there is a reason for that. Did you go to all the breeder web sites and check out what I said. I see lots of ducks on the DD web pages. Also on the PP and GWP websites. If all these shorthair breeders are really using their dogs for duck hunts why are they not using this as a selling point. Where are all the pictures beside the blind of the ice breaking and duck limits. I am not so easily fooled. As a real duck hunter and someone with common sense I can see the advantage of a good, thick wire coat. Unlike you we have a choice. If we really thought shorthaired dogs had an advantage duck hunting we could easily breed for them. The genes are there. And wirecoats really don't shed very much. Probably no more than a shorthairs coat. A good wirecoat is low maintenance. And Rick if you want to see pictures of wirehairs and DD's on duck hunts go to the sites. The pictures are there. Many of their owners if not most use their dogs for versatile hunting. And spare me the stories of the Brittany spaniels versatility. I have been to those web sites too. They seem to be keeping their duck hunting a secret too just like the shorthair owners. Don't be afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free.
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Postby Birdhunter » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:12 am

All I am saying is to anyone new to hunting dogs, do your homework. Study how the breeders and owners really use their dogs if you want a good versatile dog. Don't be swayed by test scores and stories of versatility. Ask to see the proof.
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Postby Birdhunter » Mon Mar 03, 2003 1:43 pm

Finished out the shorthair websites today. There are some shorthair breeders, while in the large minority, that are breeding for versatility. My hats off to you. You are fighting an uphill battle and deserve all the support you can get. Huntersedge I am sure you are one and I have no doubt you use your dogs as versatile dogs. I am sure they do a good job as all around hunters. More power to you.
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decoy's

Postby gohntng » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:59 pm

http://www.geocities.com/gohntng/roxyduck.html
I just let my GWP, help pick up our decoy's, we don't have to wear those aweful boots or tear our waders.
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Postby ME » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:45 pm

Okay Edge,

I just crunched the #'s for all of 2002 UT's and Invite.

216 GSP's tested--- 159 passes for a 73% pass rate.


85 GWP's tested--- 64 passes for a 75% pass rate.


It is better, not by much but GWP's pass at a higher rate because of FUNCTION :wink:

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Last edited by ME on Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ME » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:51 pm

gnhntng,

If you plan on UT testing I wouldn't get your dog into the habit of picking up the decoys. If she brings one back in the UT you will fail :cry:
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Postby Rick Hall » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:40 pm

Birdhunter wrote:And Rick if you want to see pictures of wirehairs and DD's on duck hunts go to the sites. The pictures are there. Many of their owners if not most use their dogs for versatile hunting. And spare me the stories of the Brittany spaniels versatility. I have been to those web sites too. They seem to be keeping their duck hunting a secret too just like the shorthair owners. Don't be afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free.


You're a hoot. Why on earth would I care to see web site pictures of dogs on duck hunts? I've been seeing the real thing virtually every open season day since 1983, and likely more than most during the twenty years before that. Don't doubt for a minute that there are duck hunting GWPs and DD. Why should I? I duck hunted one of my English setters from the rocks of Lake Erie to within sight of the Gulf of Mexico and a slew of places in between, for cripes sake.

And why would I give a flip whether Brittany breeders promote their dogs as waterfowl retrievers? If I was as impressed by such things as you, my Britt would have retrieved several hundred fewer ducks and geese this past season while we made do with a Chesapeake that wasn't as well suited to the situation at hand. Coat's not everything, especially in the age of neoprene.
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Postby Brown Dog » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:13 pm

It does seem that a good neoprene vest renders the whole coat superiority argument mute.
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Postby Hunters Edge » Mon Mar 03, 2003 11:36 pm

ME
I see now you added UT's to the percentage. The problem with that train of thinking or figures is as follows.

Lets look just at the invite which you were using before. Now I am not sure about past invite's because I do not have the figures besides the VC and how many ran but it does not distinguish breed, but it doesnt matter let me get to explaining. If your method was correct at picking a breed, we both have the wrong breed for being versatile LOL. What I got is 19 dogs tested for GW with a 47.4% and 78 GS tested with a 38.5% success rate but the problem is the more that is tested the more your going to have a failure rate for example the ES and SP both are 100% and the GR tested at 50%. Now I plan on keeping my dog but if you want to use your way of thinking I think you out to get an English Setter, Spinone and if you want just a little better versatile dog than one you have a GR. LOL

Also before you added UT tested dogs you made it sound that if you did not get a VC the dog was not worth feeding it any more. With that philospy or train of though I feel sorry for you and more for your dog. You want to sell him? See I believe all dogs that have a chance at the invite are good dogs and would be a delight to have an opportunity to hunt over. Personally feel sorry for those that were unfortunate not to pass. All dogs at the invitational I believe can do everything required in the test otherwise they would'nt be there. They just did not do it the day of the test. I feel very fortunate that my dogs performed well that day and working with dogs I know I and any other VC's were very lucky.

Now getting back to your work you did. If you test a dog and it passes the breed now has a 100% if no other dog of that breed tested. So what you fail to realize and I hope I have made it perfectly clear the more dogs tested it increased the chance of failure unless you have the same amount of dogs tested in a particular breed your way of determining breed performance to another, means absalutely NOTHING. Your trying to determine using 216 dogs tested in comparison to 85. When the numbers are exactly the same come back with percentages of passes, until then it dont mean anything. Except someone grasping at straws.

gohntng

I highly suggest you cease from encouraging/letting your dog retrieve decoys. If anything this behavior should be elliminated even by force if nessecary. There is nothing worse than downing a criple or even many of them the dog goes out gets one that he marked just outside the spread the others he never seen are long gone you send him back on blinds he starts bringing decoys back. By all means this practice of retrieving decoys is not desired or appreciated by most if not all serious waterfowlers. Also like Me explained it can not only cost you a fail in UT or an HR test but can be very embarrassing to say the least.
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