Top 3 breed with the strongest pointing instinct?

Pointer and setter breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:01 pm

terry,

I have seen at least 1000 Vdogs both here and during my 11 years in Europe. I say again, the DLH with which I have more than just passing contact, raised and trained by a personal friend in Germany, which I have observed in training and in the field under the gun ---IS one of the hardest driving Vdogs I have seen. I didn't say ALL DLH are so-just anecdotally that this dog was. And you don't know squat about the DLH beyond what you have read or heard.

I'd tell you what part of my anatomy you can kiss, but I don't want to be rude. Get off your throne, will ya-we've seen your act before.
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Postby parshal » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:12 pm

Cora's Shadow wrote:Parshal is the only person that I have ever heard from that commented that the GLPs he saw were not strong pointers. I would be very interested in learning which lines those particular dogs were from. Because IN GENERAL, GLPs are much stronger pointing dogs than LMs. I think that anyone who has worked with any numbers of both breeds will verify that.


That's good to know that I've seen is the anomaly rather than rule.
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Postby gezer » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:53 pm

Terry, please be soft with D&B, I have taken D&B on as a project and am currently mentoring on a couple other threads..

D&B as part of your homework please read Terry's observations number's 7 and 8....11 yrs in Europe, sweet, do you think they would take ya back? If they would and you accept, please keep in touch as I really think I can help ya
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Postby terryg » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:58 pm

I would be happy to hear Terry's opinion after he has actually seen one or two young GLP on point (instead of just assuming their mediocrity based on the number of GLP in America).


how did you make the jump from "not in the top 3" to being mediocre?

nowhere did i say they were mediocre. YOU SAID THAT!

did you ever think that it was odd that the largest contingency of pointing dogs and trainers in the world contain only a handful of dlh or pp. why do you think that you seem to have the real truth as to what the the top pointing dogs are but the rest of the pointing dog world "just doesn't get it!" ?

if they only knew what you knew, the dlh would be the number one pointing dog in no time. those fools! how dare they not believe in your chosen breed :roll: well at least you have bill and jon and wait....joan baily in your corner. the rest of the pointing world will just have to labor under their misguided ignorance and someday maybe they will see the light! :lol: :lol: :lol:

i would like to know......


what is is that causes owners to go ballistic and think you hate their chosen breed and are assigning it to obscurity if you tell them you don't condsider their breed to at least be in the top 3.

oh no, what if my dog is only in the top 6. now i have to get rid of him and start all over. :roll:




jon, the word was "trained" 1000 not seen.

i have no doubt this particular dog was the 'worlds best' with your enthusiasm and defense of him. despite what you think, i believe you have a great deal of knowledge concerning working breeds.

but how does that translate to the breed being in the same category?




you folks need to seperate disagreemenst on dog knowledge from personal attacks.

when someone makes a comment on a particular breed it has nothing to do with you as a person.

i would NEVER insult ones choice of breed.

i have enjoyed the ownership, training, working and living with over 200 dogs of so many different breds i can't remember! I also had the luck to work, 1 on 1, with way more than that .

IT IS WHAT I DID FULL TIME, AND GOT PAID FOR, A LOT OF YEARS.

this is not an edict from "my throne" as my freind d&b likes to say. just a fact that i , nor you, can change. :wink:

if i had the opportunity and the wherewithall to own many more i would and the pp and dlh are on my shortlist, but sorry to say, they are not in the top 3 .

a commnet just ion passing, i used to have my students tell me on a pretty regular basis when they would start that they had "read one or more books on training".

my standard answer was i had read 2 books on flying. would they like to meet me at the airport in the morning and go for a ride.

what would your answer be? :wink:
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Postby yawallac » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:41 pm

Not a biased opinion though hey :D


Ok, maybe a little!
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Postby orhunter » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:31 pm

Eh?
Never owned a setter but been around a few. They're just too pretty and they make me look worse than I should. Kind of explains the Griff....
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Postby KYgsp » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:57 pm

Bigshrimp wrote:
Cora's Shadow wrote:the versatile breeds with the strongest pointing instincts (in no particular order) are the Pudelpointer, German Shorthair Pointer, German Longhair Pointer, and the Brittany.

Surprised the Viz isn't on that list?? Does she say how she determined this?


Based on my limited observations of the breed I have never seen one find enough birds to judge their pointing instinct. All I have seen have been to busy staying an arms length away from their handler at a trot.
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Postby Cora's Shadow » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:50 am

I do apologize for getting a little defensive. It is just tough to listen to someone proclaim that your breed is not a strong pointing breed when they have not even seen one to compare to other breeds. I have not been around long enough to have trained 1000s of dogs, but at least I have hunted/trained/tested with representatives of the breeds that I am comparing to longhairs.

I think that what this really comes down to is that we are using different qualifications to determine great pointing instinct in dogs. It still sounds like you are saying that GLPs are not very strong pointers because the "large contingency of pointing dog trainers" have not recognized them as such and started mass-producing the breed. Is that correct? Do you have any other cause to believe that they are not strong pointing dogs? Perhaps a reason that was derived after seeing a litter of GLP pups? I am not trying to pick a fight. I am just curious to find out how you formed an opinion about the ability of a breed that you have not seen in the field.

Also, why don't you think Pudelpointers are strong pointing dogs? Have you ever hunted with one that didn't point well? Do you know someone who had a hard time getting their PP to point? Since that breed is also bred by and for hunters, I would imagine that we would all hear an earful about a PP with inferior natural abilities. Does anyone agree with Terry that PPs should not be included in the top 3?

I have not claimed that longhairs are the #1 pointing dogs of all time. But I do believe that the GLP should be included in the top 3 with the GSP and the PP as far as pointing ability. I mean really, what other continental breeds would anyone put up? A GWP? A Griffon? What else? I could see why someone might mention a Brittany. The field trial specimens are stunning. But what about the average Brittany found in a lot of American family's homes?

Perhaps we should take a minute here to discuss how we are describing strong pointing instinct in order to better understand the answers of others. Yawallac proposed the following system for measuring pointing ability:
Things to consider:

age to first point - Pointer
age to consistent pointing - Pointer
strong intense points, etc. - Pointer

I think that the 3 qualifications that he described are excellent places to start. But I think one key factor that he left out when considering an entire breed is the percentage of the population that meets these qualifications. If 10% of the pointer population points at a young age consistently with intensity, is that the same as 90% of the population pointing at a young age consistently with intensity. Of course not. A breed (like pointers) that has a vast Majority of its offspring pointing consistently with intensity would be said to have a stronger pointing ability than a breed where a minority of offspring have these same traits.

Getting back to the question at hand, I think that most would agree that GSPs are just phenomenal and a large majority of them are strong pointers. And I think that test records, as well as anecdotal evidence, would support that a vast majority of all GLPs and PPs born are strong pointers. So when stating that GLPs and PPs do belong in the same class as the GSP, I came to that conclusion by thinking the following: a breed that only produces 6-20 litters a year with 90% of the puppies showing strong pointing instincts may be stronger pointers than a breed with tens of thousands of puppies born each year with <90% of them having strong pointing instincts. Do you think this assumption is incorrect?

But that is just how my biologist mind (and my need to get representative samples) works. If we had a different measurement tool to quantify pointing ability, perhaps others could argue for different breeds. How did everyone else think out how to answer the question? Did you think of individual dogs that you had seen? Or breeds that excel in pointing competitions? What other factors may have been considered? Consistency was obviously a large factor in my proclamation, but perhaps others feel differently? I would like to hear other reasoning if you have it. Thanks!

PS I am sorry about the lengthy post. I just finished up 2 days at a Wildlife Society meeting where I heard dozens of talks about research methods for various wildlife research projects. Clearly the importance of a well-thought out approach to solving a problem (as well as easily measurable objectives) is still lodged in my brain. :wink:
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Postby Margaret » Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:21 am

Dear Cora's Shadow

Look on the bright side. If these people feel GLP are not strong in the pointing then it can only be good for the breed. They will not be bred by all and sundry to turn into some generic "pointing" dog to run against "English" Pointers in field trials, or compared to such in range and pointing only, they will with liuck be bred for all their strengths of which pointing is just one of them.
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Postby yawallac » Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:28 am

Yawallac proposed the following system for measuring pointing ability:

Not my list. The "Things to consider" came from Bigshrimp.
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Postby Bigshrimp » Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:18 am

Cora's Shadow wrote:But I think one key factor that he left out when considering an entire breed is the percentage of the population that meets these qualifications.

Totally agree :D
Reliability of the pointing instinct throughout the population of the breed if imperative in making a broad statement. If the variability is too large then it would be necessary to divide the breed into parts which show consistency (i.e. different breed lines).

....that just gets complicated (for people like me anyway :oops: ). I think that if a broad statement is made regarding any breed then it's important the variability is taken into account. Like CS said, if only 10% of Brittany's (for example! :roll: ) have an extremely high degree of pointing instinct and the remaining 90% do not show near that level of instinct, then we cannot say that Brittany's as a whole show a strong degree of pointing instinct (but only these specific lines do).

If we could measure ALL dogs from hunting lines (for the Weims out there!) within the breed, how would we ON AVERAGE rate their pointing instinct??

This brings another question from CS: How do we quantify pointing instinct?? I suggested:
1. age to first point
2. age to consistent pointing
3. strong intense points

....but I really don't know what I'm talking about :lol:

How can the instinct be accurately measured?? How do the judges in NAVHDA, JGHV, field trials (do they rate pointing instinct?), etc. measure pointing??

This is getting very interesting :D
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Postby AlbertaVizsla » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:10 pm

KYgsp wrote:
Bigshrimp wrote:
Cora's Shadow wrote:the versatile breeds with the strongest pointing instincts (in no particular order) are the Pudelpointer, German Shorthair Pointer, German Longhair Pointer, and the Brittany.

Surprised the Viz isn't on that list?? Does she say how she determined this?


Based on my limited observations of the breed I have never seen one find enough birds to judge their pointing instinct. All I have seen have been to busy staying an arms length away from their handler at a trot.


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Postby langhaar » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:42 am

Hi C

Pleased to read in the UK about your defence of our breed re it's pointing ability.Best keep the virtues of this delightfull breed close to your chest tho, don't want too many people knowing how good these dogs are!
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Postby ryan baumann » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:08 pm

pointer , pointer ,pointer. i know I'm new here but thats my three choices for pointing instinc.
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Postby terryg » Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:25 pm

It still sounds like you are saying that GLPs are not very strong pointers because the "large contingency of pointing dog trainers" have not recognized them as such and started mass-producing the breed. Is that correct? Do you have any other cause to believe that they are not strong pointing dogs? Perhaps a reason that was derived after seeing a litter of GLP pups? I am not trying to pick a fight. I am just curious to find out how you formed an opinion about the ability of a breed that you have not seen in the field.

Also, why don't you think Pudelpointers are strong pointing dogs? Have you ever hunted with one that didn't point well? Do you know someone who had a hard time getting their PP to point? Since that breed is also bred by and for hunters, I would imagine that we would all hear an earful about a PP with inferior natural abilities. Does anyone agree with Terry that PPs should not be included in the top 3?



i don't know where in any of my posts you read this but
perhaps now would be good time for you to put up a quote in my own words where i said.

"glh's are NOT very strong pointers and i don't think pp's have strong pointing instinct"

i know i'm interested in seeing those words . :wink: :wink:

btw, how many


Ariege Pointer (Braque de l'Ariege)
Bracco Italiano
Braque du Bourbonnais (Bourbonnais pointer)
Braque D'Auvergne
Braque Francais
Braque Saint-Germain
French Brittany (Épagneul Breton, FCI standard)
Canadian Pointer
Cesky Fousek
Old Danish Pointer
Old Spanish Pointer (Perdiguero Navarro)
Portuguese Pointer
Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer
Spanish Pointer (Perdiguero de Burgos)

have you hunted behind that you are so positive that the dlh and pp outpoint all of them?

wonder how many joan hunted behind.
:wink:
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