Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Pointer and setter breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Bigshrimp » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:30 pm

These two breeds look very similar. Is this coincidence? The DL-GNA website speaks to 5 pointing dog breeds in the ancestry of the DL, which precludes the DW from its make up.
The DWNA website just cites the German Stober as the ancestor of the DW.
Do they both maybe stem from common ancestry in the 18th century?

Is the temperament of the two breeds as similar as their appearance? I can only speak to my DL as being calm/cool headed, determined and very good - natured. Does the DW share similar traits or does it have a very different personality?

Just curious since these breeds appear so similar but are not referenced in each others history.
Last edited by Bigshrimp on Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bigshrimp
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:19 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Bigshrimp » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:43 pm

Just consulted Craig's book (an absolute MUST HAVE for anyone interested in pointing dogs: http://www.dogwilling.ca/pointingdogsvolumeone.cfm)

There is no reference here to DW in the history of the DL. However, interestingly it looks like there is DW in the background of the Large Munsterlander.
User avatar
Bigshrimp
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:19 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby JTracyII » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:15 am

Bigshrimp wrote:
There is no reference here to DW in the history of the DL. However, interestingly it looks like there is DW in the background of the Large Munsterlander.


Kind of surprising to me since the two came from the same stock genetically and were separated by color. I'm assuming that the addition of DW to the LM was added after the separation by color?
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby orhunter » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:50 am

JT. That's my understanding also.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7301
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:44 am

there is a difference between official statements of breed clubs and real breeding phylosophies.Things were different before the time of genetic fingerprints :wink:
Talked to a successfulUS bulldogbreeder few decades ago when I owned and trained them he said to me......I only trust pedigrees that I falsed myself :oops: :P
If you are looking for an answer to your question check a few pics from the most successful DL and LM breeders dogs Dr Hendrik Brebaum Kennel "de Wynen"
Page 204 in the book "Der Deutsch Langhaar Jagdgebrauchshund! is a good excample !!!! Watch the dog on the far right!
Breeders who were addicted to performance only have ALWAYS crossed dogs to tune up certain traits which are much stronger in related breeds and their undisputable success always proofed them right and sanctioned it!!!!
Wish we still had more (any) ofem today instead of the many paper breeders and internet kynologists!!!! This type of breeding and selecting practise made the german versatiles!!!!!
If Dr. Brebaum would still be breeding I sure would own and hunt a DL from De Wynen!!!!! Papers or not :-x really don't care if it provides me the ultimate performance and I could benefit from his endless experience and knowledge! 8) :idea: :wink: :!:
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:22 am

Another perfect excample,bottom pic page 213 showing Mr+Mrs Houzer,Dr Carl Tabel and DR Hendrik Brebaum with Fanny De Wynen!
Authorities who spend their entire live to bring the standard of german versatiles to the peak level and raise the bar for others, never tolerating any excuses for weak or even questionable traits in any of their broodstock!!!!
RIP and a big THANK YOU for all you did for us to benefit and enjoy the fruits of your hard and dedicated work in breedclubs and striving for perfection in our favorite V-dog breeds and JGHV system!
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Bigshrimp » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:42 am

Thanks Wolfgang. They do seem very similar, and just curious as to their differences. Both are fairly rare here in North America, with the DW group seeming to have a tougher time establishing than the DL group here.

Wolfgang wrote:there is a difference between official statements of breed clubs and real breeding phylosophies.

I reviewed the two breed club sites (DLV and VDW)....with the help of Google translate :oops:. Looks like they are saying similar things: the clubs describe both as breeds excellent in forest work and water work. With the VDW emphasizing more of their dogs' abilities in retrieving, and of course their abilities as a stober (to independently search for game...correct?). The DLV of course speaks to the DL's ability to pointing and work after the shot.
"Forest work" is a little vague to most of us in North America, but I believe it refers tasks such as searching for big game, holding game at bay (e.g. wild boar), and blood tracking. Is this accurate?


In terms of temperament, the DLV describes the DL as calm, hard working and good-natured. The VDW describes the DW as lively and neither aggressive or shy.

Can you emphasize what you would see as the major differences in temperament and working ability. Is the DL a pointing version of the DW? I don't think so....so what is the functional difference? Why would someone choose a DW over a DL (and vice versa)?
User avatar
Bigshrimp
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 483
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:19 am
Location: Ontario

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby Wolfgang » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:03 pm

Bigshrimp wrote:Thanks Wolfgang. They do seem very similar, and just curious as to their differences. Both are fairly rare here in North America, with the DW group seeming to have a tougher time establishing than the DL group here.

Wolfgang wrote:there is a difference between official statements of breed clubs and real breeding phylosophies.

I reviewed the two breed club sites (DLV and VDW)....with the help of Google translate :oops:. Looks like they are saying similar things: the clubs describe both as breeds excellent in forest work and water work. With the VDW emphasizing more of their dogs' abilities in retrieving, and of course their abilities as a stober (to independently search for game...correct?). The DLV of course speaks to the DL's ability to pointing and work after the shot.
"Forest work" is a little vague to most of us in North America, but I believe it refers tasks such as searching for big game, holding game at bay (e.g. wild boar), and blood tracking. Is this accurate?


In terms of temperament, the DLV describes the DL as calm, hard working and good-natured. The VDW describes the DW as lively and neither aggressive or shy.

Can you emphasize what you would see as the major differences in temperament and working ability. Is the DL a pointing version of the DW? I don't think so....so what is the functional difference? Why would someone choose a DW over a DL (and vice versa)?


except for the pointing ability of the DL and the bigger range in search and track (stöbern und hasenspur) of the DW there is not much(any??) difference in performance and style.
Both breeds are "usually" or lets say the good ones calm friendly and well natured but hard and aggressive on big or predatory game! Both breeds excell in water,-and forestwork and in fieldwork its the things I described above which seperates them.
Your interpretation of "forest work" is correct ! the reason to choose one over the other is simply personal preferences and for those who decide to get a DW size and forestwork only (maybe some additional waterfowlhunting) might be the reason!?
Wolfgang
Wolfgang
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:41 am
Location: germany

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby lanco » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:00 am

Ava at least is very friendly, a little shy with other dogs and useless as a watch dog. However she is fierce on vermin, would gladly hunt hogs if I would let her and has hunts through pain to a fault (unless she's bleeding or major bones are broken she doesn't stop). She is stubborn enough to frustrate a hard core retrieverite but biddable enough to call off a track when needed (she was barking down a fresh hog track today and I called her off, healed her a bit and restarted snipe hunting). She is intuitive and cooperative and can adjust her approach to the situation. For instance we sometimes surround a phragmite (we call em rouseaus) patch and turn her in to drive out coots after a duck hunt, it's not a typical bird dog technique but she shift into it easily then back to regular "quarter in range and flush" mode when we are done. She will stalk with me to jump shoot ducks, me and the guys I hunt with are generally head/neck shooters so I never taught much blood tracking but as a breed DW are quite proficient at that. Granted I get to hunt her about 20-25 days a years so after 8 seasons we have figured each other out pretty well. I think it really comes down to whether or not you want/need pointing. For me, the game we chase isn't amenable to being pointed in many cases so the flusher makes more sense.
lanco
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:41 am

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby chiendog » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:36 am

These two breeds look very similar. Is this coincidence? The DL-GNA website speaks to 5 pointing dog breeds in the ancestry of the DL, which precludes the DW from its make up.
The DWNA website just cites the German Stober as the ancestor of the DW.
Do they both maybe stem from common ancestry in the 18th century?


Are the DL and DW 'related'? Undoubtedly. Were the breeds crossed at one time? Very likely. Was one use to 'create' the other. Probably not intentionally (or at least not with a specifically designed plan). Nevertheless, any similarities are not due to coincidence. The DL and the DW are related in the same way that German is related to Dutch or French is related to Spanish....actually probably even closer, more like same language, different dialect.

The best way to frame the DL and DW situation is to think of the flushing spaniels and setting dogs situation. Springers (and cockers) and setters all come from the same root stock, known back in the day as 'land spaniels'. Over time, some branches of the land spaniel tree were selected (and cross bred with others) to enhance the pointing/setting trait, while other branches were selected (and cross bred with others) to diminish the pointing/setting trait.

In Germany, during the time the DL was developed, a similar thing happened as some local varieties of basic 'hunting dogs' followed a more pointing dog path while others (specifically the DW) went down the the Stoberhund (litterally: 'rummaging dog' which means a flushing, tracking, houndy type dog..that does not really point) route.

Bottom line, if you dig far enough back in the history of the DL (and LM and SM) and DW, you will find common ancestors. If you dig far enough back in the history of the GSP, Pointer, Braque (of any sort) etc. you will find common ancestors. If you dig far enough back in the history of the Setter, Springer, Epagneul (like the Brittany) etc. you will find common ancestors. If you dig far enough back in the history of the Drahthaar, Griffon,Pudelpointer, Stichelhaar you will find common ancestors.

The only difference is how far is far enough. For the DL and the DW, you probably don't have to go back much further than about 1870 or so.
User avatar
chiendog
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1133
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:16 pm
Location: Winterpeg

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby chiendog » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:39 am

Bigshrimp wrote:Just consulted Craig's book (an absolute MUST HAVE for anyone interested in pointing dogs: http://www.dogwilling.ca/pointingdogsvolumeone.cfm)

There is no reference here to DW in the history of the DL. However, interestingly it looks like there is DW in the background of the Large Munsterlander.



Thanks for the props Bigshrimp!! And yes, I mention the DW in the LM history..but don't forget, the LM is basically a black and white DL. They were, at one time, the same breed, just different paint jobs. So the relationship of the DW to the DL is the same as it is between the DW and the LM.
User avatar
chiendog
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1133
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:16 pm
Location: Winterpeg

Re: Deutsch Langhaar and Deutscher Wachtelhund

Postby woodboro » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:25 pm

The Vatel' is a short some what stoke type dog I have experience with.
They are super friendly and are a flushing dog type look spaniel. Die hard will refute the spaniel , but they look as much.
they love to track .

Langhaar's are pointers , range about 20-25 pounds more than the vatel' , and are about as tall or taller than a DK or DD.
They are super friendly , house dog , love to hunt , but are a much more passive dog compared to the DD.

Similarity's are in their personality , and that is about it.
woodboro
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:50 pm


Return to Pointers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot] and 4 guests