I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Pointer and setter breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Re: I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Postby Tony » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:00 pm

One of the problems with purchasing a vizsla is dealing with the breed club clique. The get together at dog shows, hunt test, and closed field trials and tell each other how great their dogs are so they can justify charging twice as much for a JH bred vizsla pup as you would pay for a NFC bred GSP. If you are a vizsla breeder and you don't belong to the clique, they will start unfounded rumors about your kennel and breeding.

There are legit vizsla breeders around, and 1stimer may have found one, but don't let a fancy website sell you a pup.
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Postby Margaret » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:20 am

Hunter wrote:Margaret,
No, there were no clauses. These breeders stand by their pups, they don't make excuses and blame owners for genetic defects in the pups. These are the type of breeders I like to work with, not somebody looking to blame any shortcomings of the dog on the new owner.

A new owner would have to work on making a stable dog gunshy. It is the unstable dogs that have gunshy problems.


I disagee. I have seen countless pups ruined by ignorant owners.
Of course it is always the pup or the breeders fault.
It isn't that hard to make a good pup gunshy.
A genetically gunshy pup would obviously be a basket case from the start.

Perhaps these breeders poke out so many pups having them returned for a replacement is not a big deal?

Nah. :?
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Postby Margaret » Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:25 am

larue wrote:What if I sell a great pup,to a guy who does not do anything with,,
or worse screws the pup up bigtime? nows he wants me to take the damaged pup,and give him his money back,so he can go on and ruin another...and talk bad about my pups...right now I have two sleeping pups out of a max/hiedi bitch,who was rejected by her first owner,,
and her next owner got a prize 1 ut with her,,,


Exactly.
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Postby Hunter » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:57 am

I had a very bold pup; she searched hard, pointed and retrieved very well, had a great temperament, loved all people, got along good with dogs...and was gunshy. She was "properly" introduced to the gun. What did I do wrong?? Nothing, it was just a genetic problem in her. Using your theory nobody would predict there was a problem.

I've also had many pups that I didn't introduce to the gun "properly"...just went out and hunted them...no gunshyness problems at all; even with the pup that had a serious temperament problem.

I am curious what these people are doing to ruin their pups?
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Postby larue » Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:17 am

margaret,,the rejected pup worked out,,yet she did not come back to me,,
she was traded for a refund of two pups...she was in tough shape,and had
some big training issue's.. yet her new owner loved her drive,,so they
worked with her,,I had phone calls asking about her nose,,And I showed
her literrmates to the new owners,,they realized that she was silently
blinking birds,becouse of her training,,and she had a good nose...so they
kept her..It had a happy ending..
Hunter,,lets see how do people ruin or damage pups,,lets start with
the e-collar,,they can make a dog heel at your side,blink birds,be a nerviuos wreck,,all with the incorrect use of an e-collar..
They can do nothing,,no birds,no walks,no exposure.
They can introduce a pup to gunfire wrong,,,or to soon...and make the pup gunshy..
they can beat the pup into submission,they can destroy its spirit..
They can also overtrain,let the pup catch too many birds,
throw the pup in the water,when he hesitates to swim...
they can let the pup be attacked by another dog,
The list goes on ,and on..
The pup itself and its mental stability will affect how easily it is damaged,,
yet even the boldest,pup can be damaged,by a well meaning owner..
Take pointing,,a new owner who does not have birds,will sometimes overuse a wing on a string,,,and teach the pup to point with his eyes,
so now the pup wants to see the bird before he points,,so he bumps alot of birds in a n/a test...and gets a lower score,,yet the pup has the instincts,,but was trained to use his eyes..And the owner had good intentions,,just trained it wrong..
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Postby Hunter » Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:34 am

Larue,
I am going to play the devil's advocate, don't get too upset. I know that people can "ruin" a dog, but believe that in most cases, there was an underlying problem with the dog causes the owners to try "dumb" things because they are at a loss of what else to do with the pup.

Let's address the root cause of most of these circumstances.

E-collars can definately do a lot of damage. My observations have been that people, especailly newcomers do not start out with an e-collar. They resort to e-collars when they are having a fairly serious problem with the dog/pup; most often the pup takes off on them and/or will not come. Why is the pup taking off on the owner? A genetic problem in the dog. Why won't the pup come? Low cooperation/trainability.

Doing nothing. It will not help the pup learn about hunting, and when they do decide to take the pup hunting, it will take time for the pup to learn, but it will go back to doing what comes naturally. If the pup has a good nose and strong pointing instincts, it will start to point birds. If the pup naturally has some drive/desire, it will start to develop a decent search pattern.

Gunshyness, from my observances is mostly a genetic problem with the dog. An owner can make a dog gunshy by teaching it to associate gunfire with abuse, but I believe this rarely occurs.

Yes, they can beat the dog. How many owners beat their dogs? It can be a problem, but I don't believe it is very common. Why are they beating the dog, is it out of fustration? Is the dog stubborn, hard to train, slow to learn, uncooperative? (I don't condone beating for any reason)

Letting the pup catch birds is a problem. If the pup is pointing, how is it catching birds?

If the pup goes into the water naturally, like it should, why would the owner throw it in? My guess, the pup doesn't naturally like the water and the owner doesn't have any better ideas of how to get it started in the water.

Getting attacked by another dog....dogs are dogs, they have their own way of interacting. If getting attacked by another dog causes it to break down and become unhuntable, there is a stablity problem with the dog.

I used the wing on my second pointing dog every chance I could get. I have many pictures of her pointing the wing. She would even go into the garage where I hung the pole and point it. Her first encounter with a live bird, she pointed the instant she scented it. She had good pointing instincts and used her nose.
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Postby KJ » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:30 pm

I agree a lot with what hunter has said. Clueless trainers can definatley scew a pup up but a very mentally stable pup would bounce back. I am not saying that a pup returned because of gunshyness or gunsensativity cannot end up being an outstanding hunting dog (or a breedworthy animal) but, I would still acknowledge that the pup has a mental stability issue. There are varying levels of mental stablility and it is just a part of the whole picture.
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Postby Makintrax » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:08 am

1sttimer,

The advice that seems most prevelant for picking a gun dog is to go and see the parents hunt. If you really like the way they hunt, look, temperment, etc., then you have a fair chance of getting a good dog.

That is all well and good, but from my perspective not very helpful. I simply do not have the time to call a bunch of breeders, find time on a Sat or Sun to travel, watch the dogs etc. I have work, a business to run, etc. Beside that if you are not an experienced dog person how in the heck are you supposed to make a fair judgment! When I got my first dog I had never even hunted over a pointing dog. Any dog that could find a planted quail, point and retrieve it would have impressed me.

I came to the conclusion that I would find a breeder who tests the dogs IN A SYSTEM THAT IS MOST LIKE THE HUNTING I DO. I researched the testing systems - what are they looking for? Is the system a test or a competition? Is it more about obedience, performance, or a mix of both? After that I started looking for a breeder that consistently bred only dogs that were judged by (supposedly) very experienced dog people to be superior dogs at what they are bred for. Certainly those judges know more about dogs than I do! I've only owned two hunting dogs in my life for heaven's sake.

For me that means more that parents with JH titles. There are a whole lot of show dogs out there with JH titles too - are they really good hunting dogs?

I know for myself I will not be able to do away with a dog that does not make the grade. Therefore a few hundred extra dollars up front for a dog from a top notch breeder, parents and grandparents with UT1 and MH titles, NSTRA CH., walking field trial points, is well worth the extra money for me. There are no guarantees with genetics, but you can improve the odds of success.
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Postby larue » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:31 am

makintrax,,if you do not have the time to look at the parents,or see them run,,or even to personally talk to the breeders ,,how in the world are you going to find the time to train a pup?
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Postby Makintrax » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:37 pm

Larue,

How many good breeders are within a days travel of your home? I'm talking about comparing numerous breeders, and trying to see which one has the best dogs. I DO have time to take a Sat and go look at a breeder. Do you really expect me to have 5 or 6 Saturdays to travel and compare several breeders? Trying to find a day that works for me, and the breeder is not that easy, plus I am supposed to travel. Sorry, but that is totally unrealistic.

How many hours on end do you really need to train a dog? I get home from work at 5:30 and can dedicate time until dark to train, plus a few hours on Sat or Sun. Are you really suggesting that is not enough time to train a dog? The breeder I bought from is 2 1/2 hours away from me, thats 5 hours of travel and a couple of hours to watch dogs - a whole day's worth of time.

Maybe I wasn't totally clear. I am not suggesting that anybody buy a dog sight unseen, or without seeing the parents. What I am suggesting is that you narrow down your choices to a couple of good breeders with proven dogs, and then go see those dogs to see if you like them. (And no, that point was NOT clear in my first post, but should have been, and for that I do apologize)

A person like me or 1sttimer CANNOT be expected to be able to judge a dog's value as well as a breeder like you. It therefore only makes sense to take expert evaluation. Just because some dogs don't have UT1 or MH or whatever doesn't make them bad or good - they might be fantastic dogs. What I am saying is that a beginner is not really able to judge that for themself. Do you really think I can judge the difference between training and natural ability, for instance, as well as you can? I don't think so.
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vizsla breeders

Postby mamohr686 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:51 pm

The seach for a good vizsla will be more difficult than other versatile breeds as the others have mentioned. Just because a dog doesn't have several titles on it doesn't mean it's not prepotent and a producer of several champions. Many of rozaneck breeding dogs have titles on every other generation. A great website to check out pedigrees is www.k9info.com Select the parent and look at their pedigree and also more importantly, look at the offspring of the combination of parents you selected. My last vizsla came from busch vizslas. Right now they have several litters comming out sired by their field star Raany. www.buschvizslas.com Also check out the links at www.stridervizslas.com some of my other favorite vizslas include www.onpointvizslas.com (their female is the #1 field trial vizsla in the nation who is sired by Ranny). I also like lindens vizslas. Most of the breeders I mentioned focus on AKC events and DC dogs. rather than navhda breeding. A dog that tracks with it's head down will never do well in a field trial. I thing the most important part of finding the right breeder is to have some realistic goals of what you want in the individual dog. Are you happy with a field trial champion that likes to run off every chance it gets or do you want a closer working dog that is easier to train? feel free to email me at mamohr686@hotmail.com
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Postby HuntDog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:29 am

What Tony is talking about is really pretty common. A lot of it goes on in several breeds, back patting and back stabbing that is. I have witnessed it on many occasions myself when people are throwing pups with bad teeth, poor conformation or attitude problems and their cronies tell them that the dogs are great and to keep it up instead of being truthful about it and telling them to stop or at least not charge $800 for one. So, while it is sad, it does happen a lot more frequently than one might hope.

That is not to say that most pups are not screwed up by the people that own them. Shoot, I screwed up my first dog too and learned a lot from it. So, the latest one is at a trainer as we speak. One day, I will have myself trained so that I can teach the dog and bond with it in the way the trainer is now. I just don't trust myself at this point and want to get the most out of my dogs that I can and allow them to excel in the field as much as possible.

JMO,

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Re:

Postby NEIowaHunter » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:30 pm

slistoe wrote:Just took a quick scan of the site and found that a good number of FC and DC dogs bore the Rebel Rouser prefix so I did a search. If I were you I would check into these folks as well http://www.rozanekkennels.com/

About 20 years ago, I got my first gun dog from them. They were great to deal with and my dog, R2D2, was one hunting machine. He lived to be almost 16 and hunted for 14 of those years.
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Re: I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Postby Steve Anker » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:40 am

Look up John Reid, for a VEEEEZLE, he is in Canada around Niagra Falls somewhere I believe.
his dogs have some SHAGG and they are all world beaters. We have run against em in the past and his dogs are the jammmmm.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Re: I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Postby bwjohn » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:07 am

I think john's kennel name is Onpoint, and he does have solid dogs from what I know.

I think their are a number of good Vizsla breeders out there, but I have never heard of the one you listed. I have been researching my next view for close to 2 years, talked with a lot of people and have a lot of kennels book marked.

To original poster: can you fill us in, on what you are looking for in a V? B/c it is a breed with a great deal of variety. You can get V's that will run for the horizon, good foot hunting dogs, NAVDHA heavy dogs or some complete crap. If you give us an idea of what you are planning on doing, what you are hunting and your goals, it would give us a better idea of were to point you to.

great dogs, love my boy, good luck on the search.

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