I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Pointer and setter breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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I think that I found the right Vizsla breeder...

Postby 1stimer » Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:19 pm

Has anyone here heard of http://iowavizslas.com/ ?

Does anyone know Nick Preston on this board, or maybe know of his dogs/kennel? Is a legit operation?

From everything that I've seen, everything looks good, but I'm inexperienced with purchasing purebred dogs. I've always had mixed breed humane society dogs, while I was growing up, and am nervous about the whole thing.
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Postby Hunter » Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:57 pm

1stimer,

I am always leary of someone who "screens" the buyers and then only sells with sales/breeding contracts. They only offer a guarantee on physical defects. Do they guarantee the dog will be a decent hunting dog? Do they guarantee the temperament?

I would never consider buying a dog under those terms, they offer no protection for the buyer who ends up with a dud hunting dog, and there are many duds through no fault of the owner. I would never consider a dog that I don't own outright to do with as I see fit.

There are breeders that will sell you the dog, and you will not have to deal with contracts, you will own the dog. There are breeders that will guarantee the pups fully; hunting ability, temperament, and physical defects. Find one of these breeders.

Also, try to find a breeder close enough to you that you can see the parents work wild birds.
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Postby Brandon Ward » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:33 pm

1 thing that jumped out to me was there was alot of JH titles but no MH or SH titles for their Stud Dogs and Bitches. Vs are a versatile breed and should be worked on a variety of game. I would do more research and dont limit your search for a Visla. I am sure there is some nice dogs out there but I think the wirehair or Gsp has a better genepool than Vs.
Good luck
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Postby Tony » Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:37 pm

I would keep looking. :?
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Postby slistoe » Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:03 am

Just took a quick scan of the site and found that a good number of FC and DC dogs bore the Rebel Rouser prefix so I did a search. If I were you I would check into these folks as well http://www.rozanekkennels.com/
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Postby dualgwp » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:10 pm

Hunter
I am curious what kind of guarantee of hunting ability you have been given when buying puppies. What type of abilities were guaranteed? What type of recourse were you offered?
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Postby gusto » Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:17 pm

Rebel Rouser is the best line of V's currently in the U.S.
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Postby Hunter » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:12 pm

Dualgwp,
I have bought pups with a full satisfaction guarantee, which covers everything.

I have also bought pups guaranteed to pass natural abilty and hunting tests, have a stable temperament, and guarantee against HD.

I feel both these guarantees will cover me if I end up with a dud. They don't guarantee a top hunting dog, but at least I know the dog will hunt (hunt, point, retrieve, waterwork, gunshyness, etc.), I won't have to deal with a poor temperament or physical defects. If I have any problems I can get my money back or a replacement pup.

I see many breeders on this list that state how careful they are in their breedings; how they screen the buyers; how they screen which outside bitches can use their studs. I wonder how many of these breeder guarantee the hunting ability of the pup. At the prices that are being charged for pups nowadays there should be a guarantee on the quality of dog.
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Postby Margaret » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:23 pm

These guarantees must have some clause to cover dogs ruined by their owners surely?

For instance, a promising pup well raised made gunshy by the new owner.
How does this fit into a guarantee?
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Postby Hunter » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:40 pm

Margaret,
No, there were no clauses. These breeders stand by their pups, they don't make excuses and blame owners for genetic defects in the pups. These are the type of breeders I like to work with, not somebody looking to blame any shortcomings of the dog on the new owner.

A new owner would have to work on making a stable dog gunshy. It is the unstable dogs that have gunshy problems.
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Postby larue » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:23 am

hunter,,how in the world can a breeder guarantee a pup to pass a n/a test? My max failed his first n/a with a 2 in the nose,,so he was a defective pup?,,,My graice failed on her track?,,another reject?
yet max has been a great dog for me,,and gracie has her puppy and derby points,,,,
There are just too many varibles to actually guarantee a pup on its testing ....
The biggest thing that you should look for is a breeder who cares about his dogs,and the pups he produces...A breeder who cares about the pups
he sells will put the pup first,and get it out of a home where it is not wanted,,Find a beeder who is passionate,and cares about his pups,and he will replace,a pup or refund your money if you are not happy with it,,as the motive to see the pup in home that wants the pup,will be first on his mind..,,not the money involved...
The problem with paper contracts is just that ,they are paper...try to
get your money back with a 1000. pup,if the breeders says screw you..
Your court costs would be much higher than the 1000..
no to speak of the frustrations..
so look for integrity,and care of the animals...not just a piece of paper..
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Postby Hunter » Tue Mar 09, 2004 9:56 am

Larue,
At the time you tested Max, where you dissatisfied with the pup as a future hunting dog. I am sure you where dissappointed with his score, but did you think you had a dud on your hands. If given the opportunity, would you have returned him for your money?

If you had been unhappy with him and returned him, the breeder would have no problems training and selling him (based on your previous posts about Max). The trainer would not be out anything. You should be satisfied with the breeder, you weren't stuck with a dog that didn't meet your performance level.

If Max failed and did not have what it take to be a good hunting dog. You return the dog. You are not stuck with a $500 to $1000 dog that clearly is not worth $500; you should be happy with this and the breeder who took care of you. The breeder has to take a bite here, but in the end it was clearly shown the pup was not worth the orginal price of the pup. How many buyers would pay $500-$1000 for a pup that does not have the ability to make a decent hunting dog?

Part of the problem with buying pups is you are buying potential. What if the potention doesn't pan out? Who should take the hit in the pocket book, the breeder or the buyer? With breeders charging $500-$1000 there should be some type of guarantee on the pups ability. I don't believe the new buyer should have to take the hit in the pocketbook when it comes to a dud hunting dog.

I got my money back on a pup with no paper involve, just verbal agreement, it wasn't $1000, but close enough in my book.

It is pretty easy to make the guarantee of passing the test. The breeder has confidence in the pups. Very few people will sign up for a test and make no effort to prepare for it. In the process of preparing for the test, if problems come up the buyer should be contacting the breeder. The breeder can work with the buyer, dermine if the problem is with the "training" or the ability of the dog and work to correct the training problem or replace (or return $) for a defective pup. A breeder can quickly see a pup that is clearly lacking in abilty.

It works out quite well, the buyer is more likely to put some time in training the pup rather then letting it sit until hunting season rolls around. Breeders who offer these types of guarantees do not have too many people returning pups, the buyers have been satisfied.

One thing a notice with people who "really care" about their pups is they tend to put the pups on a pedistal, any problems are the owners fault.
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Postby larue » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:36 pm

hunter,,I knew max's potential,,and was disappointed in his first n/a score..yet If I had waited until he was older,he would not have gotten another chance to run the n/a test again...And as many new people
in navhda put so much in a test score,,a dog like max could very well
be a disappointment,and have not met the guaranteee of a prize in a n/a test...I have seen many first time n/a testers,not get there dogs exposed,or ready for this simple test..and for most of these people the n/a is as far as they will take there dogs,very few go on to the ut level..
What if I sell a great pup,to a guy who does not do anything with,,
or worse screws the pup up bigtime? nows he wants me to take the damaged pup,and give him his money back,so he can go on and ruin another...and talk bad about my pups...right now I have two sleeping pups out of a max/hiedi bitch,who was rejected by her first owner,,
and her next owner got a prize 1 ut with her,,,
There are two sides to the puppy deal,,I can show anyone how to get a
prize in a n/a test,,and if they listen,,they will...but there in lies the problem,they either do not listen,or they just do not put in the work needed..I am glad thet your pup was taken back by the breeder,when it did not met the standards that you had set...
It works out best for both involved, the dog and the owner..
This situation of buyers expectations,and buyers reality is the biggest
reason that I rarely breed..they too often want a great prospect,
but rarely want to do the work...
As far as careing breeders putting there dogs on a pedistal;
I would expect that,,as long as they are honest about what they expect in the pups,,and in the sire and dam...then whats wrong with thinking highly of your dogs?
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Postby dualgwp » Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:29 pm

When I took a look at the Vizsla breeders web page and then the pedigrees, I saw lots and lots of highly trained dogs in the background. Many of which are known as some of the greats of that breed. I would like to see the sire and dam with more than a JH title, but it sure appears that at least pedigree wise, the puppies should have the potential. Maybe you should ask why they haven't gone further with "mom and dad"? Maybe they plan to and just havn't gotten that far yet? Questions to consider.

Concerning guarantees on pups, I will take back a puppy at any time in it's life. It's in my contract that the new owners must contact me before they sell, pass on, give away or whatever... I have first right of refusal. If they contact me within a reasonable timeframe, I am willing to give them their money back, but not after the dog is all grown up. We can work something out....but heck they had plenty of time to let me know things werent' going well and they should have talked to me. I do know my dogs best!

I have seen too many dogs that ended up abused, untrained, spoiled, unsocialized from very well meaning individuals... some people think these dogs drop from the womb being great working dogs and that they didn't think they needed to do all that work to get them there. I can't hold hands, I can't be there, I can't guarantee they will do the right thing.. I can only advise, and hope they take the advise. So some guy takes his baby puppy to the shooting range, scares the bejesus out of the puppy... and it's my fault? They chain the dog to a tree in the backyard and it barks.... and annoys the neighbors? They think a crate is cruel and it eats their couch... Mom ain't happy, dog isn't housebroke, dog has no manners.... hey, everyone has to do their part, not just the breeder.


No dog will ever walk out of here without a written and signed agreement of sale spelling out all guarantees to protect both the buyer and me. It's ok if someone doesn't wish to agree with my contract, I am more than willing to help them find a puppy elsewhere. Pedastal? You betcha!

But everyone has their own way of doing things, and everyone has their own level of what is acceptable or not. Sounds like Hunter has worked with some very caring breeders who are willing to go the extra mile.

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Postby Jon » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:54 pm

I think a guarantee regarding genetic defect, physical health and stabil temperament is reasonable and I always offered it. Beyond that, we all take our chances no matter how talented the pedigree. Get real folks - most of the folks that buy these pups can't raise their kids never mind a dog. My experience has been that there are so few good owners (folks that know how to train a dog) that the problem is not the pup in most cases. Ever notice that there are certain folks out there that no matter what dog they have, it does well. I think we need to put a little more responsibility on the owners (and be willing to help them). If they truly have a problem dog, then they should be able to bring it back. But, frankly, I haven't met the dog I can't make into a passable hunting dog - the problems are with owners in the vast majority of cases.
Keep the breed versatile
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