Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Pointer and setter breed specific questions. Kennel information requests, etc.

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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby madduckdog » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:32 am

I don't see any mess when I look at NAPPA, just solid performing hunting dogs.


I am not saying anything about the dogs just about the breed as it stands in NA. The efforts are devided up quite a bit and that may one day effect what to expect from a dog out of one dog or another group. The big knock on our breed is the "small gen pool" devide it up and it gets smaller.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby orhunter » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:00 am

Mad:

The gene pool isn't as small as you think. Virtually 99% of the PP's in N. America are in the hands of hunters. No AKC and pet breeders to contend with. All the top PP folks have access to the European gene pool and can get themselves, you and me, anything we want. Those who choose to back breed to EP's, aren't trying hard enough. The super highway of dogs and information is open to all those who seek it.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby Shannon » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:42 am

Gauge,
My pup is a Cedarwood's dog out of Ace's High and Killbucks Owyhee Playgirl. I'll post up pics later. I just got him home last night about 9 PM.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby blathens » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:02 am

Harvey, I agree totally. The PP gene pool available to NAPPA breeders is quite sufficient at this time. One reason perhaps is that all the PP breeders are shooting for basically the same "type" of PP. Unlike some other breeds such as the GSP which can be a 40 pound white field trial rocket to an 80 pound dark hog hunter from VDK lines.
The biggest variation we have in the PP is the coat. The vast majority of female PP's are in the 50 to 60 pound range and the males from 60 to 70 pounds.
NAPPA has breedings where the coi is in the 2% range. There is no need to breed back to the pointer. We have several generations of NA genetics bred to Czech, German and Austrian genetics. The focus is on producing hunting dogs for hunters who also want a great family dog. No pet people, no show dogs, obedience, therapy or agility dogs.

Bill
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby azquailhntr » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:44 pm

Bill nailed it as far as I'm concerned

"The focus is on producing hunting dogs for hunters who also want a great family dog. No pet people, no show dogs, obedience, therapy or agility dogs."

Well said! Keep the breed in hunters hands.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby Gauge » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:06 pm

blathens wrote:I heard recently that since leaving the PCNA, Bodo has started a new PP club called "The Bodo Winterhelt Pudelpointer Organization." The PCNA has always been the Bodo Club anyway, in my opinion.

Bill


Yep..I found this link http://bodowporg.com/index.htm

This is from the site:

Bodo the founder of the Pudelpointer in North America also started
Navhda. "Bodo" also started the P.C.N.A. but subsequently left it in
January, 2011 due to irreconcilable differences. II Bodo" then formed
this most recent organization, The Bodo Winterhelt Pudelpointer Org.
in order to uphold his time proven breeding practices.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby orhunter » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:29 pm

"time proven breeding practices." That's probably the best one I'll hear today, maybe for the week.....ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby madduckdog » Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:24 pm

The gene pool isn't as small as you think


I am not so sure what I think..... I know the "Pudelpointer" gets critized for it.

but what is a big gen pool worth if 40% of the gens are not so good. Just look at the golden or irish setter,.. they have not benifited form a large gen pool.

smaller and good may be OK.


Is there is the danger that one super Stud dog can over produce. Ie wonder stud putting out 1/2 the North American population. Is this good maybe ie good dogs are produced.

I don't know.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby Calvinator » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:18 am

Maddog, to help you understand how NAPPA has operated with a very open minded approach to expanding the PP’s gene pool and continues to create more genetic diversity from these efforts you need to be aware of some of the outbreedings that have taken place over the past years. NAPPA has had 3 litters from a PCNA male named Cal Valley’s Ace. Six Czech imports have been used recently along with many Czech, Austrian, and German dogs as outcrosses to N American PP’s in the past. There is a planned breeding with a VPP male to a Czech female this fall. Also a VPP male to a German import. For these reasons most NAPPA breedings have a COI of less than 10% (this is an outcross breeding). Basically, NAPPA has and will continue to use N American, VPP, PCNA, Czech, German, and Austrian dogs for breedings. The kicker is that all these dogs must meet the breeding standard NAPPA has established. WINNING !!! Now, show me where VPP or PCNA has or will use anyone else’s bloodlines other than those in their own little gene pool or bailing off to the dark side with the EP. The reasoning they are supporting hedges on kennel blind soundness.

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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby blathens » Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:46 am

Madduckdog, it seems you are including
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby blathens » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:13 am

Sorry for the previous unfinished post.

Mad, it seems you are including NAPPA as part of this "mess" of "clubs" that represent the pudelpointer. Lets be clear as to what NAPPA is. It is not a PP club that is open to anyone who owns a PP. It is an ALLIANCE of breeders who got together who all had the same interest in producing the best pudelpointers for North American hunters possible. NAPPA is not in conflict with any other group that promotes the PP. It uses NAVHDA or American Field as it's registry and NAVHDA testing or any other comparable recognized testing organization to establish the minimum breeding standards. There are no breeding "lines" among the breeders. The breeders cooperate and share genetics, refer buyers to breeders with available pups and are happy for each others successes.
I have suggested to several breeders of other breeds to do the same thing. Form an alliance of same thinking breeders to do what the lone breeder cannot do on his own. Hopefully the successes of the NAPPA and now the GWA will urge breeders of other breeds to do the same.

As a side note, Bob Farris is still a friend of Bodo Winterhelt. Their interest in the PP went in different directions but there is no animosity between the two as far as I know.

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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby RBoutdoors » Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:03 am

I am a fan of the JGHV testing system. I like having a coat and conformation breed test. I think that it produces reliable dogs. You can see what it has done for the VDD and others. I know that there will always be 2 PP org's. The one that follows the JGHV/VPP and one that doesn't. I know that not everyone likes the JGHV and doesn't think it is applicable to the N.A. but you have to agree that it does provide a solid proven testing system. I do sometimes worry about the size of the gene pool but think this is just a hurdle

Not being part of the NAPPA I am not sure what is in place other than what is listed on the web site, but I would like to see a more stringent breeding requirements for both coat/conformation and testing. Do not think that I am bashing what you have already done but I think we underestimate what these dogs are truly capable of. I also think that with more restrictions you have less fluctuation between breeders. I know that we are not trying to produce carbon copies but we are trying to breed for consistency.

I know that every group will have good breeders and bad. I was burned by one NAPPA breeder, but talked to 2 others on the phone for a long time and they were as helpful as you could possibly ask for. I don't know enough of the the VPP breeders to tell the good from the bad (mainly cause there just aren't many). I know that when I was looking at other breeds I ran across people I would never do business with and have seen it in other JGHV affiliated breeds.

I say all that in hopes that we can go on not bashing each other ever time someone posts about a PP on here. Heck a NAPPA breeder pointed me to the VPP because of the type of dog I was looking for.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby madduckdog » Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:26 pm

Maddog, to help you understand how NAPPA has operated with a very open minded approach to expanding the PP’s gene pool and continues to create more genetic diversity from these efforts you need to be aware of some of the outbreedings that have taken place over the past years.


and

Mad, it seems you are including NAPPA as part of this "mess" of "clubs" that represent the pudelpointer. Lets be clear as to what NAPPA is. It is not a PP club that is open to anyone who owns a PP.


what is a "outbreeding" if you are not a club.. Look I am cool with it.

is good or bad to use some super stud manny times.

if he is produceing awsome pups is he hurting the gen pool or helping,... after all the goal of a breeder is to produce the very best. If you as a breeder,.. can get access to the very best stud ofcourse you would use him but it would effect diversity.
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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby blathens » Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:15 pm

Mad, "outbreeding" refers to breeding two unrelated PP's. The opposite of "inbreeding." It does not mean breeding two PP's from different groups like a VPP dog to a NAPPA bred dog.

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Re: Pudelpointer Clubs what a mess.

Postby Calvinator » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:37 am

I am a fan of the JGHV testing system. I like having a coat and conformation breed test. I think that it produces reliable dogs.


Just by viewing the photos posted here on vdogs, I would say that the VPP breedings are producing about th same coat consistency as any other PP group. Maybe slightly worse. There have been more slicks in the two VPP breedings that I know of than in any of the NAPPA litters I have seen. I have a VPP dog from one of those breedings. His coat is less than ideal. A little too long, a little soft and not as tight as I like to see. I'm not being negative toward the VPP, as they are just a fledgling org. here in NA. To date VPP-GNA have only had 2 litters whelped on NA soil.

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