SMCNA club to join German KlM club vote

[Cora's Shadow]

my breeder went for LONGER LEGS

According to the FCI breed standard, a SM/KM should have a longer body and shorter legs. I copied and pasted the following from the standard:
"The length of the body from point of shoulders to the buttocks should exceed the height at the withers by not more than 5 cm." This is one reason why it would be good for the SM/KM breed to have breed show evaluations where unbiased judges ensure that breeders are keeping the breed within the breed standard. It ensures consistency in the breed by allowing it to remain true to type. Hopefully Jim's pup's breeder did not go to the extreme and his pup will still be within the breed standard.

The German system is all about producing the total gundog...one that has sound hunting ability, temperament, health, and conformation. Dogs missing any one of those components should not be bred. Obviously no dog is perfect, but everything is on a scale and some dogs are pretty darn close to perfect! For instance, at DL breed shows, the dogs get rated on 3 things:

-Type (How much does the dog look like a DL should look? The main focus here is usually the head, the bone, and the chest)
-Conformation (How well does the dog function? Are the angles correct? Does he move well?)
-Coat (Pigment, Density, Texture, Feathering, Tail Flag are all taken into account here)

There are essentially 4 different rating categories:
- insufficient
- good
- very good
- excellent

To gain breeding certification, a dog has to receive at least a "g" (good) rating in each of the three categories. So again, dogs don't have to be perfect, but the ratings certainly give you a better idea as to what you have and what you should be breeding to. In Germany, they have a lot harder time selling pups out of breedings with only "good" ratings on them. I suspect this will be the case in America too once we start producing more puppies.

In the KMs, I believe that you only give two ratings...one for conformation and one for coat. I think they are just rolling the type and conformation categories into one category.

[SMAbby]

I have a major problem with the claim of testing availability as I feel like, and have stated several times, if the DD, DK and DL can get it done, why cant we. I understand it would be harder for some. I think we have 10 plus members in Alaska that are even limited with NAVHDA. Maybe with these folks some allowances can be made. But if you are in the lower states, I think you can get to a breed test. For those that dont want to breed, there is still NAVHDA. There is just such a low percentage of dogs in our group that come across for breeding each year that I think the die hard breeders will not have a problem making the extra effort.

Lossing breeders and dogs is also a valid concern. I know there are those from other clubs that can talk about the pros and cons here.


The thing that bothers me about Cora's statement about more availability if we become KLM-NA, is that it is a known fact that VDD-GNA will bump any non DD dog if a spot is needed for one of their own. I may be wrong, but I think it is the same with DL-GNA. So, knowing this, our members do not even count those tests as possibilities. We only look at tests with JGV-USA or NADKC.

I dont care to argue the whys behind the testing and bumping. I understand why it is done. I am just stating a fact.

I would like very much for the DD, DK, and DL members to put some of our members at ease with their experiences.

Both sides have valid arguments and I dont know what the answers are. But know that the Germans started this breed and have molded it into the dog that we wanted to buy and let into out homes and hearts. I think all they ( The Germans) want to do is to help us maintain what they have created. i dont think they are trying to "Take over"

[SMAbby]

my breeder went for LONGER LEGS

In the KMs, I believe that you only give two ratings...one for conformation and one for coat. I think they are just rolling the type and conformation categories into one category.

You are correct. Also, Hardness is not required to breed. So, again, we have a non issue.

[Cora's Shadow]

it is a known fact that VDD-GNA will bump any non DD dog if a spot is needed for one of their own. I may be wrong, but I think it is the same with DL-GNA.

This is a true. Any breed club (VDD-GNA, DL-GNA, NADKC, VPP-GNA, etc.) can bump another breed out of their test to make room for their own breed up to 30 days before a test. However, each entrant has to be told whether they are in the test or not 30 days before the test. So if you get booted, you have time to try to find another test. And you know for sure you have a spot if the test is under a month away.

For what its worth, I've always been aware of this guideline, but it has never happened to me. We have run several DLs in VDD-GNA VJPs and HZPs and have never been bumped from a test. I have never heard of anyone else actually getting bumped from a VDD-GNA test either. I've got our youngest DL signed up to run in a VDD-GNA HZP this fall and do not anticipate any issues.

Since JGV-USA is so accommodating, I would recommend that a KM club start co-sponsoring their own tests with them right away so they don't even have to worry about getting bumped and they can choose locations that are most accessible for KM owners.

[DK dreams]

I would recommend that a KM club start co-sponsoring their own tests with them

I would be willing to attempt this.

I have already made my intentions known to Mark B.

[JIM K]

my breeder went for LONGER LEGS

According to the FCI breed standard, a SM/KM should have a longer body and shorter legs. I copied and pasted the following from the standard:
"The length of the body from point of shoulders to the buttocks should exceed the height at the withers by not more than 5 cm." This is one reason why it would be good for the SM/KM breed to have breed show evaluations where unbiased judges ensure that breeders are keeping the breed within the breed standard. It ensures consistency in the breed by allowing it to remain true to type. Hopefully Jim's pup's breeder did not go to the extreme and his pup will still be within the breed standard.

The German system is all about producing the total gundog...one that has sound hunting ability, temperament, health, and conformation. Dogs missing any one of those components should not be bred. Obviously no dog is perfect, but everything is on a scale and some dogs are pretty darn close to perfect! For instance, at DL breed shows, the dogs get rated on 3 things:

-Type (How much does the dog look like a DL should look? The main focus here is usually the head, the bone, and the chest)
-Conformation (How well does the dog function? Are the angles correct? Does he move well?)
-Coat (Pigment, Density, Texture, Feathering, Tail Flag are all taken into account here)

There are essentially 4 different rating categories:
- insufficient
- good
- very good
- excellent

To gain breeding certification, a dog has to receive at least a "g" (good) rating in each of the three categories. So again, dogs don't have to be perfect, but the ratings certainly give you a better idea as to what you have and what you should be breeding to. In Germany, they have a lot harder time selling pups out of breedings with only "good" ratings on them. I suspect this will be the case in America too once we start producing more puppies.

In the KMs, I believe that you only give two ratings...one for conformation and one for coat. I think they are just rolling the type and conformation categories into one category.

personelly i like longer legged dog than shorter one.
as this is my first SM his legs so far are nice and long.


i like a long legged thin dog over short stocky dog for type of hunting i do here in pa.[grouse]
this is why i have only lab that hunts grouse here,his legs are longer and he is SLEEK AND handles cover better than shorter legged pup.

i do see some SM that are real close to ground and VERY short legs.
i dont like that.
i see SM with longer legs compared to short SM i see on net.also shorter ones look more chubby to me too.
i dont like that, i like taller ,thinner ,sleek look ,hunting dog.but maybe its just me and pics the dogs are same heights etc but they dont look like they are.

now that is my dog of choice.
some of the youtube pics i saw from germany/denmark showed SM that are shorter and closer to ground ,then i saw some that are higher off the ground with more of thin sleek look.
i like taller ones if i was to get pup from those 2 choices.if what i saw is true on look of the SM height etc.


maybe its just me not knowing too much about SM size etc.
just my preference, i like taller dog that is thin and not big boned that can handle heat better.
so far, my puppy is going to be tall and long legged and is very sleek .boy does he have long neck too

[leadeyedbugger]

I can only speak to my own experiences in vdd-gna...I live in oregon, and i can tell you that getting into a vjp in the northwest region is borderline impossible for DD owners, let alone another breed. There are alot of pups out here every year, and most people at least want to test in vjp/puppy...most of the bigger breeders have the inside track, they know when the tests will be posted, they know the dates before they are posted and the tests are full within a week of being posted in many cases....I sent in paperwork about 3 months before the test, i got bumped around and finally found a test in california that had 1 spot left. The people were very helpful in trying to find me a spot but i basically took the last spot in the whole wild west chapter 3 months out....The HZP seems to be easier to get into as most of the participants are people looking at breeding so the total number of people going is lower.....
I have no idea how it is in other regions across the us and i don't know what the status is for testing for DK or DL in this region, but i will say that the west seems to be a growning hot bed for the DD as a breed and there are more particapants then tests,judges etc right now. This is actually something that has been discussed within the club and they are really pushing to get more people through the judging program to be able to hold more tests in the future.....

I think that some kind of split is kinda unavoidable......Some people are going to want to keep the breed as it was designed, others are going to take the breed and try to mold into more of a straight up upland/duck dog.......DD vs GWP , PP vs VPP, DL vs longhaired pointer etc etc etc.....its kinda just the way it goes.....
I have seen a couple SM's that were out of Herzcoff kennel i believe and i thought that they were neat dogs....

[DK dreams]

Then coordinate your own test.

It's what i did, after years of trying to get into VGP - I held my own test - it's this Sept.

Jim K,

as long as the dog falls within the standard then there is room for preferences

BUT

there can only be one TYPE within a breed

Breeders start breeding what they prefer and there will be a separation of field,show,versatile

The best forward movement for the breed is for breeders to be on the same page

there is plenty of room for individual preferences

When people start saying they prefer (insert breed) look this way or that way then those people are changing the breed

What is the reasoning behind the standard posted by Cora's Shadow?

Understand the 'why' and the breed standard may make more sense

[SMAbby]

I think that some kind of split is kinda unavoidable......Some people are going to want to keep the breed as it was designed, others are going to take the breed and try to mold into more of a straight up upland/duck dog.......DD vs GWP , PP vs VPP, DL vs longhaired pointer etc etc etc.....its kinda just the way it goes.....
I have seen a couple SM's that were out of Herzcoff kennel i believe and i thought that they were neat dogs....

I think you are spot on with this. It is not desired. I think if the line is drawn in the sand, you will be able to decided which side you support.
Maybe even an agreed upon split will be less messy then a forced one. Who knows. There is no right or wrong answers here, thats a fact.

[JIM K]

I also joined his Landesgruppe

Mary, Could you explain?

I joined the Landesgruppe of the region that the pup came from. I am a club memebr of the German Landesgruppe Saar-Pfalz.

i can taste that ole boar backstrap now

[JIM K]

my breeder went for LONGER LEGS

According to the FCI breed standard, a SM/KM should have a longer body and shorter legs. I copied and pasted the following from the standard:
"The length of the body from point of shoulders to the buttocks should exceed the height at the withers by not more than 5 cm." This is one reason why it would be good for the SM/KM breed to have breed show evaluations where unbiased judges ensure that breeders are keeping the breed within the breed standard. It ensures consistency in the breed by allowing it to remain true to type. Hopefully Jim's pup's breeder did not go to the extreme and his pup will still be within the breed standard.

The German system is all about producing the total gundog...one that has sound hunting ability, temperament, health, and conformation. Dogs missing any one of those components should not be bred. Obviously no dog is perfect, but everything is on a scale and some dogs are pretty darn close to perfect! For instance, at DL breed shows, the dogs get rated on 3 things:

-Type (How much does the dog look like a DL should look? The main focus here is usually the head, the bone, and the chest)
-Conformation (How well does the dog function? Are the angles correct? Does he move well?)
-Coat (Pigment, Density, Texture, Feathering, Tail Flag are all taken into account here)

There are essentially 4 different rating categories:
- insufficient
- good
- very good
- excellent

To gain breeding certification, a dog has to receive at least a "g" (good) rating in each of the three categories. So again, dogs don't have to be perfect, but the ratings certainly give you a better idea as to what you have and what you should be breeding to. In Germany, they have a lot harder time selling pups out of breedings with only "good" ratings on them. I suspect this will be the case in America too once we start producing more puppies.

In the KMs, I believe that you only give two ratings...one for conformation and one for coat. I think they are just rolling the type and conformation categories into one category.

you are right too. i see pics of SM that are short with short legs and look heavy and lots of hair.
i like SM with long lean body and long legs.that is what i got with whiskers. he is very lean and long and legs long.