Cross Breeding

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:56 pm

Since what is being looked at and it is going to take time, why not just breed red setter to red setter with the right selection criteria. If they had it once it is still there, .......considering it isn't just a shortcut your looking for.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby orhunter » Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:26 pm

This sounds like a 20 year project which needs the support of an entire team. Sort of reminds me of the WPGCA. The WPGCA team was too small and lacked the resources to pull it off. Great intentions gone astray....
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7306
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:01 pm

Well just cuz it was once there does not mean it still is, That is how the Red setter club came into being to begin with,If I understand correctly, AKC does not allow a performance based standard so all you can do is breed to a standard based on physical appearance.....and it doesn't work very well that way. I don't know why you can't have the AF allow another setter outcross... it seems the real problem is having enough people interested in Reds to keep a viable population of them going. Since it is within the standard, even the AKC standard for White to appear on chest and toes, I am not sure why you would not breed to an English setter.....I do feel for your plight though Anthony. Has the NRSFTC asked doctors Boser or Hammonds to come up with a recomendation to improve the health of the general stock?
one trick pony
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:18 pm

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:09 pm

orhunter wrote:This sounds like a 20 year project which needs the support of an entire team. Sort of reminds me of the WPGCA. The WPGCA team was too small and lacked the resources to pull it off. Great intentions gone astray....



OrHunter, can you tell us what happend with this breed club ? I am not very familar with them. Is there an AKC and an AF parent club?
one trick pony
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:18 pm

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:22 pm

It is a project for sure Or. One of the biggest obstacles today is the fact that owning more than a couple of dogs is fading in to the sunset. To do this project, it is going top take a good selection of dogs. Then, as far as a community effort, no two standards are the same. That leaves mostly disgruntled partners in a venture like this. But the things one learns is almost worth it. LOL
One Trick, the performance was lost through selectivly breeding for looks, you can put it back by breeding for performance, but, it will take time and field work. We will have to agree to disagree on that point. My foundation stock was two show bred dogs. As far as having to breed for appearance only rather than performance. That isn't true. I bred solely for performance and run. While they basically still look like Airedales, the only thing that meets the standard is the coat and eye color. AKC has never asked for a picture , height, weight or anything. They ask for $25 plus $2 extra per pup. While they post the standards, it isn't up to them to enforce them. While they are AKC registered, I would be one of the last they would accept into the National Breed Club. So what. I would love to see the breed split myself.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:38 pm

I need someone that knows what actually transpired with the Irish setter vs the red setter. This is the way I remember it going. In the sixties, the Irish was crossed to the English to bring it back as a viable gun dog again. The old Irish went by the wayside die to show breeding. Now, here is where I am confused. The discussioin is on crossing the red setter, which was the result of the Irish/English cross, with a visla to make it a viable working dog once again. I don't think the reds were accepted by the AKC until possibly recently. So, if my memory is correct to this point, if they were not bred for show, why are they needing another shot in the arm? Who is responsible for their decline this time?
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Anthony K. » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:00 am

AKC will not accept nor recognize today's red setter and as I've heard nor will they ever. Quite simply because there is known to be english setter in the red setter line.
The books that I've read on setter history, the english setter was developed from the irish and then when the show dog folk ruined the irish setter of it's hunting abilities Ned LeGrande stepped in and mereley borrowed back some of the genepool from the english setter in an effort to restore the irish setter to the top notch gun dog that it once was, which by the way had white in it. Ned's dogs were carefully selected from the best of the best and were campaigned the bar was set high selective breeding based on performance and the ability to perform gait lung capacity etc... etc....
True red setter folk won't let them die but it is a small group
Happiness is hearing your children laugh.
Anthony K.
Started
Started
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:12 pm

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:32 am

Well I posted the history a few pages back, but in general I think it was the 50's not the 60's when the approved outcross started, and it was done with the help of very famous(at least by doggie standards) geneticists and locomotion experts, not to mention many field trial experts etc etc....What set it apart I think was it was well documented and done the right way. At the time all these pure dogs, i.e. those that were 4 generations removed from the cross were registerable in the AKC and FDSB, so really any field bred irish has many of these crosses in it regardless of whether it is AKC or AF. AKC revoked reciprosity back in the 70's I think. So for aprox 10-15 years a nice red was really a nice AKC Irish :D I recall a fellow years ago who had a "Dual" Irish he ran in some NSTRA trials( had to be 15 or 20 years ago) and we got to talking about this and I recall him trying to explain to me how his pup ended up being close to 30 inces high at the shoulder with these long long ears and this long long neck. He talked about the ears helping with tracking and the neck with running but his dog was really not very good and very painful to watch it run. We were in a group of people talking and after he left a lady who had brits sort of pulled me aside and said, na, what happened was the show irish crossed to Afgan hounds to get that coat and also got the ears and neck :D Now I don't know or care but those AKC dogs sure look different from those English and Red setters :lol: I just remembered that so I went to WKC site and posted the video links to the Irish and Afgan hounds here
http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=0#videoid=1004541

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=0#videoid=1007021
one trick pony
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:18 pm

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Margaret » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:33 pm

Folk from NZ purchase field Irish Setter from UK.
Margaret
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:06 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Konza Vadasz » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:53 pm

I'm thinking crossing a red setter with a vizsla would produce some pups similar in appearance to a longhaired vizsla.
As an interesting sidenote, in the early development of the wirehaired vizsla, an Irish setter was crossed in to two different Slovakian WV bitches and their offspring bred back to the opposite bitches, ancestors of the dog Viktor Orosko. I was told the setter was used to add speed, but of course it also added a longhair gene, which occasionally pops up in wirehaired litters.
Deb Wall
Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla in KS
User avatar
Konza Vadasz
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby cody » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:10 pm

Anthony,

I applaud you, for thinking out the of the box. Sadly most people on this site don't realize there "breeds" were created in the same manner. Long live hybrid vigor
cody
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2002 7:16 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby CherrystoneWeims » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:10 pm

Things seemed to be going well until shortly after the second litter whelped the sire went into seizures. I also found out later that the Dam was a carrier for epilepsy though she had no seizures herself.


And did he have relatives with seizures? Hmmm I didn't know there was a genetic test for seizures. If so did you genetic test every puppy for the "seizure gene"?

From what I understand the AKC has recently opened the stud book again for Irish Setters. There are also plenty of dual reg. Irish Setters that are very fine field dogs.
Pam
Cherrystone Weimaraners

Ch Cherrystone Perl of Sagenhaft MH,SDX,NRD,VX
NFC/FC Cherrystone La Reine de Pearls
CH Cherrystone Gone With the Wind JH,NSD
Cherrystone Inherit the Wind JH
Backwoods AMF
User avatar
CherrystoneWeims
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:27 am
Location: South Carolina

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Margaret » Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:14 pm

Hybrid vigor? they'd have to be tested for genetic problems too you know.
Margaret
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1034
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 12:06 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby peto » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:09 pm

Many of the VHD dogs of today were the result of crossing different breeds to create something more in line with the preferences of the hunter. Why did they need to create a DD, when they had WPG, PP, the other wire haired breed that was thrown into the mix? People like to create and experiment, or just hate being part of the mainstream. There are tons of DD loyalists out there today, who I am sure are very happy that someone decided to try crossing those breeds and creating a new breed.

I've had an incredible PP for the last 10 years, and I am sure glad some dude decided to cross the pudel with the EP. Can't imagine life without my dog.

People are too close minded. There are people I meet today who curse my dog as a mutt and some sort of "doodle." Really, its just ignorance, intolerance, and insecurity.
peto
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:21 am
Location: Mountain Home, Idaho

Re: Cross Breeding

Postby GRIFF MAN » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:51 am

peto wrote:Many of the VHD dogs of today were the result of crossing different breeds to create something more in line with the preferences of the hunter. Why did they need to create a DD, when they had WPG, PP, the other wire haired breed that was thrown into the mix? People like to create and experiment, or just hate being part of the mainstream. There are tons of DD loyalists out there today, who I am sure are very happy that someone decided to try crossing those breeds and creating a new breed.

I've had an incredible PP for the last 10 years, and I am sure glad some dude decided to cross the pudel with the EP. Can't imagine life without my dog.

People are too close minded. There are people I meet today who curse my dog as a mutt and some sort of "doodle." Really, its just ignorance, intolerance, and insecurity.



First, I can't believe that someone brought this thread back from the grave..... :(

Second,
To make a comment on your post. You ask why did different breeds get developed ?? I majority of breeds as we know them today were mainly created as a result of regional seclusion. Many countries or cultures where secluded from the rest of the world and as a result they created a breed with their own ideas and needs. It was not easy to travel and import dogs for breeding out side of your region, so they started with a type of dog and evolved it into what we know today.

As far as today....not so much the same story of centuries ago. Todays dogs modern (designer) dogs are created for a different reason...that is usually $$

My only issue with dogs that are being "created" today is that it really takes a lot of time, money, and lots of dogs to really create a new breed.

I don't really care if someone does it, but I really think its a drop in the bucket and buyers need to beware.

GRiffman
GRIFF MAN * LOVING LIFE AND MY GRIFF!

Aspen Glo's Kennels
Wirehaired Pointing Griffons
www.aspenglokennel.com
User avatar
GRIFF MAN
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:16 am
Location: wisconsin

PreviousNext

Return to Breeding

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron