Cross Breeding

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby ccccrnr » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:07 pm

the hunting Irish setter one basicly created by 1 or 2 guys back in the 60's in their own kennel.

they out crossed Irish setter to English setter Field Champions.

and in effect took field stupid Irish Setters show 'CH'ances to FDSB field champions.

If you try it (not recommending it), Cul pups ruthlessly like a good breeder should, not like PETA would
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:44 pm

ccccrnr wrote:the hunting Irish setter one basicly created by 1 or 2 guys back in the 60's in their own kennel.

they out crossed Irish setter to English setter Field Champions.

and in effect took field stupid Irish Setters show 'CH'ances to FDSB field champions.

If you try it (not recommending it), Cul pups ruthlessly like a good breeder should, not like PETA would


Actually the gent most responsible was Ned LeGrande, and he did not do it in his back yard as he was very wealthy, he searched all over the world for hunting Irish and then employed a Geneticist of national renown named Whitney to formulate a plan to revive the Irish. Then He went to the Field dog stud book with his proposal and they accepted his plan to outcross and then backcross to pure Irish for 3 generations and the 4th generation get were esentially pure Irish. Now the dog he started with was an english setter that had Irish blood in it's background. It was a master plan and has worked out wonderfully as Reds are now competing very very well on the AF circuit against the best english pointers and setters. The history is right here at this website. http://www.nrsftc.com/history.htm Anthony, are you wanting to do an outcross to a Visla for your Irish setter? Tell us more why Visla, they are not the first that would come to mind as there are many many great english setters out there that would be more genetically appropriate, in fact, if your Irish is AKC it would be much better to cross to a AF red setter. If you have an AF red setter then I believe you may still be able to do that english setter outcross and then 3 gens of back cross but I believe you should check with the National Red Setter club first. Allen F is the guy to talk to.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby orhunter » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:15 pm

One Trick:

Thanks for the great post.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby boarhunter » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:01 am

It is reasonable in rare instances. And, it must be done with a collective, as a collective (I am hinting as the breed organization) and with support of those who can take each of these pups, put it into the right home and make sure the breeding is hair on line on a straight course. They also must make sure the pups are either spayed/neutered if necessary and then bred back to the right parentage. This can be very labor and time consuming. For one thing, it cannot be the labors of just one guy who up and decided one day that it would be a good idea.

Prime example of this being done is the Deutsch Langhaar.

Excellent point. For more information on "A Long Way" see for example:

http://www.wildundhund.de/r30/vc_conten ... h_2105.pdf

Regards,
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby bbd's » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:07 am

anyone else notice that the original posters has not since been back.....

Don't think he liked the advice...if he didn't wanna hear it why did he ask????
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:52 am

Well, after looking at his original post, I realized that he is a member of the NRSFTC and knows all this already, so now I am even more confused as to why he would pic the Visla as an appropriate cross :? I do understand the gene pool for Reds is small, especially since the AKC revoked reciprosity back in the 80's I think, but Still he has literally dozens of choices of english setter lines he could use, and not nearly as many Visla lines I would suspect.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Jägerherzen » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:18 pm

Thanks boarhunter for the link.
As far as the DL outcross. Which is why I believe a complete outcross was done instead of breeding back to foundation lines.
The pups were whelped in well established kennels, and raised trained and handled by professionals - handlers, trainers and foresters. It is a DLV supported effort with years and years of of experience behind it and VERY expensive. By the time all 5X generation is through the system I believe the DLV will have spent over 500,000 euros on the project.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby ljb0711 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:54 pm

If your looking for new blood why not import a stud....why the hell would you breed a mutt on purpose? :crazyeyes:
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby lauralee » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:55 pm

ljb0711 wrote:If your looking for new blood why not import a stud....why the hell would you breed a mutt on purpose? :crazyeyes:


DITTO !!!!!!!
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Anthony K. » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:16 am

First off let me say to all those concerned I do have a very nice red setter stud already lined up.
When I started out years ago my first two litters of red setters had to be destroyed.The sire and dam were "well bred" from great lines both were excellent in the field they checked out excellent for the hips, pra, all in all a great bill of health. Things seemed to be going well until shortly after the second litter whelped the sire went into seizures. I also found out later that the Dam was a carrier for epilepsy though she had no seizures herself.
So in my mind I don't think I'd be doing much worse by breeding to a viszla, I've seen very positive results of cross breeding and back breeding.
The Chesapeake Bay Retriever is now a purebred dog developed from breeding dogs with desired traits noone knows the half of what went into the breed for sure, newfoundland,waterspaniel, otterhound to name the known. Now since we've become "civilzed" and know more about breeding and genetics look what has happened to the chesapeake, they now too have bad hips and it's difficult to find any with out, as with labs etc.. etc...
This notion of a pure bred dog: a few years ago some little dog (pekinese or something like that) won best in show in a major event it was later discovered this champion had surgery prior to it's win.The win was called into question and what was questioned was, "did the surgery alter the appearance of the dog to give it an advantage". In fact the surgery was to open the nasal passage because the dog couldn't breath. Since the surgery didn't alter the appearance the dog kept it's title. Now with such a win comes breeding rights, and all that breed to that "champion" are breeding to a defect in the nasal passage why would you breed to a dog that has a defective nose even if it is a lap dog.
If you have a known defect free Viszla with superior desireable traits and breed to a red setter of same caliber, keeping then only pup or pups that exemplify all the desired traits and proving them and back breeding to the original breed. How can this be any worse than breeding to a champion that can't breathe as a result of PURE breeding .
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Anthony K. » Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:39 am

Why a Viszla to a red setter? to keep similar coat color, a shorter coat. Similar look,size, pointing breed.
The red setter female I have has a very short coat with a feathered tail any other feathering shows up only in a winter coat. She comes out of "Bearcat lines" a superior line of field bred red setters.
I have a photo of her posted in the photo section of this site in the red setter section her name is Kira.
She has an impressive pedigree and there is no mention in it of any cross breeding But to look at her and her personality one would think there is pointer in there.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:02 pm

Well I must agree with your thinking if you believe that your reds are to tightly inbred to find a healthy one anymore, But if you are going to cross to a differnt breed, wouldn't a nice orange and white setter out of say Crocket lines be better than a continental breed? I own Pointers so I would say even a orange and white pointer would be a better bet than a Visla, as Vislas are pretty tighlty bred to as I understand, and I also believe many of the field bred Vislas have a little Lemon pointer mixed in well maybe a lot, Why you could even go for a Yellow Shorthair :lol: :D. Anthony has the parent club board of the red setters discussed more outcrosses to increase hybrid vigor? What do they think of the Visla Idea? From a Vigor Standpoint I would suspect good ol english setters would be more healthy and less inbred than field bred Vislas' even with the lemon pointers/yellow shortair blood.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby lauralee » Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:38 pm

Anthony K. wrote:First off let me say to all those concerned I do have a very nice red setter stud already lined up.
When I started out years ago my first two litters of red setters had to be destroyed.The sire and dam were "well bred" from great lines both were excellent in the field they checked out excellent for the hips, pra, all in all a great bill of health.
Things seemed to be going well until shortly after the second litter whelped the sire went into seizures. I also found out later that the Dam was a carrier for epilepsy though she had no seizures herself.




Your still not guaranteed any more by this cross breeding to produce pups with out any genetic defects. Realistically, your breeding is putting you at more risk. Also, you may see the need for this breeding,put what about the other pups your bitch produces, do they have homes, or are they just considered collateral damage???? :(
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby Anthony K. » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:39 pm

As far as breeding to a fine English Setter, sure but the thought is the potential of a litter of pups with a lot of white that's not really keeping in with the red setter and back breeding well how would you know if the pup selected is going to throw red pups.
It's not that I think the reds are too tightly bred well some are there is pleanty of pointer blood in them now yet noone will publicly admit it.
As far as the red setter club and the breed standards, cross breeding is not acceptable.
As far as this type of breeding being more risky genetically I think that's a 50/50 deal. There is really no 100% guarantee even when breeding to known specimens sure the odds may be in your favor.Things have a way of showing up years down the line that you may never know and in the mean time you've had several breedings from the same pair and the owners of any of those pups have bred their pup carrying the unknown.
Grantedd doing a cross there are many unknowns there is evidence out there now that will substantiate the claim that mutts are typically healthier than purebred. I will say though that field bred dogs have far less issues( that my experience would lead me to believe) than do show dogs or dogs of that type of breeding practice.
Ultimately there is no gain with out risk, how much risk is a person willing to take or afford. If the litter is no good it's no good don't allow any of it to go public period.
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Re: Cross Breeding

Postby one trick pony » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:30 pm

Well, I supose if color is your most important goal. I thought you were looking to improve performance and health, but I supose if solid reds is your goal then a Visla might be ok, though the field bred ones are getting whiter and whiter :) I don't understand why the Reds have crossed to Pointers when they were allowed for a time at least to breed to Setter and then back cross with the AF tracking all of it so it was legit....no need to hide a pointer in the woodpile. There are still many many fine english setters in the Field dog Studbook, that, though they may not run AF ALL Age can hold there own in shooting dog stakes. Have you talked to The other members of the Red setter club to see if they think Visla is ok. I would still say no, as you will be selecting your breeding stock based on color rather than performance and it has been proven time and time and time and time again that color is the last thing you should be focusing on. :oops:
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