everybody breeds for money....everybody

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everybody breeds for money....everybody

Postby cody » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:07 pm

I got to thinking about this after I read calagaryrookie post on an another subject. Every breeder out no matter what they claim is breeding for money. I know that when I was breeding and raising pups it was for money, yes I bred the best to the best, did all the testing and had good intentions of making better dogs. But in reality if you were breeding to make better dogs you would keep every pup and evaluate until it was at least 2 yrs of age. You would keep your best to breed and either cull or fix those that are not up to snuff. People don't, they get rid of them as soon as they can and SELL them to other people to evaluate. They should be evaluated by the same person who knows the traits he is breeding for and the direction he wants to take the program. Just a thought I had might be interesting to discuss :D
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Postby Cora's Shadow » Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:48 pm

I see what you are getting at, but I can't say that I completely agree with you. All of the good breeders that I have talked to say that they are lucky to break even on a litter of pups. I think that means they are breeding to increase the pool of quality dogs, not to increase the money in their pockets.

I feel like my breed (Deutsch Langhaar) is in a tough spot sometimes. The good breeders are charging $800 per pup just to cover the cost of importing German dogs and testing them, while the "bad" breeders are charging $1200 per pup for litters out of parents with no test scores or breeding standard whatsoever. Have you ever kept track of how much money it costs to run one dog through the tests (including medical tests) required before the dog can be bred? Traveling costs to tests and training need to be added in too. And also dog food and puppy shots. And I don't know about you, but my time is worth money as well.

I just calculated it and we spent just over $4,000 on a small munsterlander (I sold him a while back for $500) I owned just to get him to the point where he could be breed-certified. Let's just assume it cost me about the same for a breedable female munster. That means that I would have had to sell the puppies for $1,000 apiece just to break even. That is why I keep a separate bank account for dog stuff. So when I do finally have good enough dogs for breeding and suddenly have $8,000 in my hands, I can point out all of the money that went into the dogs in the first place.

I think those breeders (with no standard other than both parents are purebred) are the ones that are in it for the money. I even spoke to one new longhair breeder (who has bred other pointing breeds for years) last week who flat out told me that he was going to start breeding longhairs because that is what his "customers" wanted. Actually, he told me that he chose longhairs because his customers wanted "brown dogs". Then he started telling me about how he thought the perfect dog would be a cross between my "brown" longhairs and his dogs. I was infuriated to say the least. That fellow is not only going to make money charging exhorbent amounts that he never invested in the parents of the litter, he is also going to lower the quality of longhairs. He is in it for the money!!

In response to your comment about how a good breeder should keep all of the puppies from his litter for 2 years, I disagree. I think a good breeder should keep one (average) puppy from every litter to help evaluate the quality of the litter, but I think keeping 8 puppies is insane. That is how I ended up with my rescue english setter. Her moron of a breeder thought he could keep all 16 puppies (2 litters born at once) and train them as finished gundogs. When I asked him why, he said it because he could get a lot more money for them. Again, he is a bad breeder just in it for the money. He had to start giving them away because when the pups were 6 months old, he finally figured out that 16 was way to many to effectively train at one time. Not one of the 16 I saw knew a single command or had any manners. Professional trainers aside, I think it is irresponsible for anyone to think they can train several dogs at the same time to reach dogs' highest potential.

Also, the beauty of the VDD-GNA testing system, or even NAVHDA for that matter, is that the breeder has some measure of deciding whether a dog should be bred or not. If you as a breeder had a litter of 8 puppies, and their average score was VGP-69 and HZP-185, and each puppy was handled by a different owner/handler, I would think that that is as good of an evaluation as it would be with yourself training and testing the 8 pups yourself. The test scores are also split into nice categories, so as a breeder, you can look at the test scores of your entire last litter and see where they excelled or where they struggled. When you participate in a testing system, each dog is evaluated fairly and the breeder can get a pretty good idea of what to do/not to do with his next litter. Testing is a more realistic approach (and a more credible one to potential buyers) for evaluating numerous dogs.

Sorry for the long post, I just don't want good breeders to be insulted by other people thinking they are only in it for the money. Now, if only we could figure out a way to keep stupid people from giving tons of money to backyard breeders... :-)
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Postby Cora's Shadow » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:03 pm

Wow, that really was a long post. Let me summarize...
Anyone who breeds purebred gundogs because they are purebred, is in it for the money. Most people that adhere to a standards (such as passing hunting tests), are not into breeding for the money.
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Postby hunter94 » Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:17 pm

ConservationKennels wrote:Wow, that really was a long post. Let me summarize...
Anyone who breeds purebred gundogs because they are purebred, is in it for the money. Most people that adhere to a standards (such as passing hunting tests), are not into breeding for the money.



if you are a really responsible breeder and you bring the sire and damn up to high test standards (lots of time and money spent training and testing) and complete most of the medical tests, there is no way you will "make money" on a litter......the best breeders usually make nothing, but they love what they do with their dogs.......


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Postby orhunter » Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:32 pm

Then we have the folks who think money automatically buys quality. My $2,500 dog is better than your $500 dog. I should breed him and make lots of money.

My stud dog with xyz title, automatically throws better pups than your huntin' dog. I should breed him and make lots of money.

My stud dog with abc pedigree, automatically throws better pups than your huntin' dog. I should breed him and make lots of money.
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Postby hicntry » Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:19 pm

This kind of makes me wonder why so many people, making "all" that money, only have one or two litters and say screw this. They quickly find out that they either give them away or they end up keeping half of those so called profits....and feeding them. Why aren't you breeding anymore Cody, money must have been great. Only a fool would get out of such a "profitable" business. Some years even if you do make a few bucks, you have no life outside of the dogs. It's 24/7.
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Postby blathens » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:24 am

Hicntry is absolutely right. I have bred 14 litters od PP's and sell pups for 900 dollars. If I add up all the expenses of stud fees, vet bills, training, testing, travel, equipment, feeding let alone the time, it does not add up to be a profitable business. However, if I can just pay for my "hobby" I would be happy.
Thinking that breeding will give you the opportunity to pick the best pup has not proven to be always true either, at least with me. At seven weeks or so about all I can get a real indication of is coat. The pups change from day to day and if test scores are any indication, my puppy buyers have done as well or better than I have.

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breeding

Postby cody » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:30 am

You make a good point. I didn't really keep track of the costs but I am pretty sure I wasn't making any money. I had 2 litters on the ground once plus my brother had a litter of cow dogs and I was buying a bag of diamond puppy chow every third day I think they were 30 bucks a bag at the time. But I know there is money being made a just talked to one of those doodle breeders, she had 8 brood bitches and two stud dogs, sold pups from 800-1500 and her husband had just quit his job to help her so there must be some profitability there. Another thing that always bothered me was all the standards and diffrent organizations out there. I would have made this post longer but to work I must go.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:57 am

Blathens said'
"Thinking that breeding will give you the opportunity to pick the best pup has not proven to be always true either, at least with me."

Isn't that the truth. I can't count the number of times I have had a pup I thought was a real keeper but I either had already kept too many dogs back or, in the midst of making all this money, I had a feed bill or a vet bill to pay. I pick my pups at 4 weeks and never look back because second guessing never works well.
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Re: breeding

Postby CherrystoneWeims » Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:48 pm

cody wrote:But I know there is money being made a just talked to one of those doodle breeders, she had 8 brood bitches and two stud dogs, sold pups from 800-1500 and her husband had just quit his job to help her so there must be some profitability there. Another thing that always bothered me was all the standards and diffrent organizations out there. I would have made this post longer but to work I must go.


EIGHT Brood bitches!!!! This is a PUPPYMILL! Not a reputable breeder. These Doodle breeders don't do any health checks, no titles, nothing. They are just cashing in on a fad/designer dog.

Believe me I make NO money when I breed a litter which I only do when I have at least 4 puppy buyers and nothing to show. I charge $800 for a pup. Between showing (at least $550/mo), hunt tests (another $550/mo during the season), health checks (PennHip, periodic brucellosis tests on my stud dog, CERF, thyroid, etc), food (about $250/mo), gas costs, training (bird costs, etc), and routine vet bills there is no way I even come close to breaking even. Just between May and June alone I spent at least $4000 going to our National Specialty and Futurities in CA.

So I personally take offense when you say that all breeders are just in it for the money. I do it for the love of the breed and the joy of seeing my dogs out there in the field doing what they were bred to do or seeing them in the showring and comparing them to the standard.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:02 pm

Cherry, if you find Cody's assuption about breeding for money offensive, you may want to be more carefull about making assumptions about what constitutes a puppy mill. I have 10 bitches and 9 males at the moment and I don't consider it a puppy mill. Strangely, remarks like that seem to be quite the thing with "showbreeders". It might possibly be because someone is doing it differently than the SB etiquette finds acceptable. Don't hjear that kind of stuff much in working circles....a little but not the norm.
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Postby KYgsp » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:23 pm

Come on folks, you all are being less than honest with yourselves if you don't think you can make money selling quality pups. Now wether or not it is worth the hassle is a different matter. A person can definitely raise a quality litter and still make a profit if you are in the right breed with the right kind of demand. Simple law of supply and demand and a quality product.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:01 pm

Being honest, it is nice to come out ahead. Like all business, there are good times and bad times. Most people may start out thinking they just want a pup off of Fido and the can cover their cost by selling the rest. It doesn't usually work. KY, how many years have you been breeding? It has been a long time here and it is still hit and miss. It is getting better but you don't just decide to breed and throw an ad in the paper unless you got run of the mill dogs. If you are serious you have to do it seriously. You build over the years, your dogs and your reputation. Lots of years and the whole time, all it takes is a couple of bad breedings to blow it. Or sell to a few "real dog men" that couldn't train the best of the breed on their best day and let them talk. There are a lot more pitfalls than there are rewards. Right now, this very minute, I could rake it in.....seriously. I would keep three bitches and a male, loosen them up so I would have so so dogs but bigger litters, and I could drop the price a couple hundred dollars and sell every pup. I would have about 15 dogs less inthe yard, more time, WAY less care and maintenance. Less headaches....everything would be a plus except the mediocre dogs produced. Why don't I do it? Why don't some of the others? YOU DON"T NEED GOOD DOGS TO MAKE MONEY. You just need a nice pet dog because that is where the market is. Maybe there is something besides the money. The money may be there but a smart guy would do just what I said if he was in it for the money. Like the labradoodle breeder.
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Postby orhunter » Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:25 pm

I suppose there might be situations where someone could make a little money if the litter were large enough. Problem is, not all litters have 9, 10 or larger numbers of pups. How a person does the bookwork also can give a false impression of not making a profit. I don't consider the daily feeding and health care of the bitch to be an expense toward raising a litter. Yes, the hip x-rays and blood work are real enough but that can only be billed to the first litter. Stud fees and related costs can be quite steep if the stud is not nearby. Medication to time the heat cycle correctly can run $40 a month. Every breeder has different expenses involved and depending on the situation, some money can be made no doubt.

Befor I decided not to breed my outstand little Griff, I had a plan that would have required a minimum of six or seven pups @ $750, to maybe break even. My stud fee and related expenses, getting from NW Oregon to Wisconsin in the dead of winter, were going to run me a minimum of $1,700. $240 to time the heat cycle plus a few bucks for blood work and the $375 or whatever it was for PennHIP. Feeding the pups varies depending on the number plus docking, dew claws and shots. Think I was looking at over $3000 before even collecting a dime for the pups. I was going to offer the better females to known trusted breeders for maybe $200 if the pups were found to be breedable. Only hunters, unwilling to breed and outstanding dog, would have paid the full $750 price. I was going to keep what I figured was the best male which reduced the number of available pups by one. You might say I'm a little crazy for going about things in this manner but I had my priorities. The number one reason for doing things this way was to make an attempt at improving the genetics here on the west coast. They need a lot of help and I was thinking of the dogs, not my wallet.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:49 pm

From reading posts over the years one thing that is not understood is, a litter here and there will improve nothing. Odds are also, there are more than one of that bloodline being bred. Just adds a few more dogs to the population with no effect.....unless there is a darn small population. Of course, if you have enough dogs and breed enough, you're a puppy mill. It is a lose lose proposition unless you really enjoy breeding your own stock and working them. That is the big payoff.
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