line/in breeding

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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line/in breeding

Postby DK dreams » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:14 pm

I am by no means an expert, but here is how I see it.

The only way to truly create and maintain a solid line of most animals is through this method.It is as though one is creating a breed within the breed.
What most people do not realize is all the homework that goes into such a feat. It is not good enough to just take 2 dogs that have comman dogs in their pedigree and breed them. One of the most important factors to consider is : do the dogs in question exemplify the breed to the fullest extent? While no dog is perfect, this still must be kept as the number 1 reason to breed any 2 animals.
Then the dog(s) that appear more than once, have they passed along desireable traits and are they worth breeding back to?
Line/in breeding, IMO, is better than a dog with an open pedigree. this is a dog that does not have any dog repeat in the pedigree. IMO, this is poor breeding because it can not tell you what genes will be inherited, it is more or less, keeping your fingers crossed. We can assume, but when you have breeders who say that genetics is just mother nature, it is because they are telling the truth. But, in truth, if there were line/in breeding in that litter, one could predict the outcome of a litter with much certainty.
Wehle ( I think it is spelled correctly) did it with his pointers, Karin Strammin and her father did it with DKs and there are others who have achieved great success. they were not lucky, just smart. Having a good eye doesn't hurt either.
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Postby KYgsp » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:11 pm

You forgot to mention culling the bad ones. Just about everyone that I know of that was successful at line breeding had a ruthless culling program. With a strong line breeding program you will be reinforcing the good along with the bad.
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Postby DK dreams » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:17 pm

Actually, through a good program you can weed out the bad traits and eliminate them.That is the beauty of the program. It makes each litter predictable. Of course, this takes many, many generations and the abilities to keep accurate notes on each and every dog used and born in this program.
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Postby DK1 » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:01 am

KYgsp wrote:You forgot to mention culling the bad ones. Just about everyone that I know of that was successful at line breeding had a ruthless culling program. With a strong line breeding program you will be reinforcing the good along with the bad.


Ditto there. But how many people actually practice this and have the...intestinal fortitude to do so? In this country if word got out someone knocked a bunch of 6 month old dogs in the head because they were inbred to far, where would that go? If one decided to just spay/neuter all the ones that were cow hocked and couldn't point, what buyer would want them and what reputation does that give your kennel?

I think also many people who want to breed their dog only want to do it once or twice and/or don't want more than one/two dogs in the house. How many people research phenotype/genotype or which dogs passed which recessive traits in their pedigree etc etc if they are only going to breed once or twice? Maybe that's why there are so many litters that are produced that ... could have benefited from more research.

Can you have an effective inbreeding/linebreeding program (creating one's own strain in a breed) by only having one or two dogs? IMO I don't think you can.
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Postby DK dreams » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:34 am

No,you can only succeed at line/in breeding if you untake the task for a lifetime. All the successful lines have been at least 45years in the making. As far as culling, I think there are a lot of people who would take a flop from the program. As long as the dog hunts,believe me, I have seen a lot worse. Ever go to some hunting preseves, you should see what they call hunting dogs.
I believe line breeding can be done in a small operation, but the most important aspect of any breeding program is to do the research.Even start with already line bred dogs and work from there.In breeding is to detailed for beginner and I don't think I would attempt it.
It would be great if some breeders would chime in and talk about their programs.
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Postby DK1 » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:43 am

Tell me about it. :razz:

I think sometimes breeders don't like to share dirty secrets or their secret recipe for success. :wink: It's a "I did all this work so you can have the easy road? Don't think so" Sometimes it comes down to one's personal opinions about another's breedings and that alone can get very ugly.

There's alot of fine lines when it comes to breedings I think!!
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Postby KYgsp » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:59 am

DK dreams wrote:Actually, through a good program you can weed out the bad traits and eliminate them.That is the beauty of the program. It makes each litter predictable. Of course, this takes many, many generations and the abilities to keep accurate notes on each and every dog used and born in this program.


I agree totally. If you have a good line breeding program you are going to know of the flaws and defects that exist and you should be able to breed those out with enough work.
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Postby KYgsp » Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:11 am

[quoteCan you have an effective inbreeding/linebreeding program (creating one's own strain in a breed) by only having one or two dogs? IMO I don't think you can.[/quote]

I don't think you can formulate a line with only a couple of dogs. You might be able to produce a few good dogs from someone else's line in that manner but I don't think you can keep a line going and improve by only keeping a dog or two. You really need to keep and break out whole litters to evaluate your progress and weed them down to put the best back in the breeding program.

The dedication, time, money, and mental mind set that it takes to produce and maintain a good solid line of dogs illustrats that it should only be attempted a minority of breeders.
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Postby DK dreams » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:15 am

Well, you could do it by having breeding rights.Which, according to some of the contracts I have seen is not that hard to do. The hardest part would be to keep a litter till about 1 year of age and decide which get to stay in the program. This requires an excellent eye.This would only be required for a few years though,as the breeding progresses the litters will be more predictable.
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Postby hicntry » Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:57 am

I am sitting up right now while a litter is born(Or I would darn sure be asleep.) The sires parents are half brother/halfsister off a common male. The common male is the grandsire and the great, great grandsire to the dam. The sire's granddam is the dams mother and she is also the offspring of the common males nephew.

What is always left out of the equation is the fact that most breeders start to get themselves a couple of good dogs. That's the way I started, then after a few years, I became obsessed with breeding for specific traits like nose and grit. It just never seems to end. A good breeder keeps setting higher goals I think. There is no end.

What do I expect out of the litter being born right now??? I know I will have to separate most of them by 6 weeks. I know I am going to keep a male and a female. I know I can take a pup from this cross and and run it in the Nationals on Master Fur next March when he/she is 11 mo old. I also have the sires littermate sister and the dams littermate brother. Watching them work, and looking at the two pairs, I would expect the best looking pups to come from the siblings. The dams brother is going back to the Nationals also. Believe me, these Nationals are nothing like the Nationals you folks are accustom to. The performance level in the world of working airedales leaves much to be desired. .....but it is a start.

There are a lot of things that you can only learn on your own also. How many books have you read that states one of the obvious signs of inbred depression is the pups are noticeably smaller and more lethargic. They all say that. What I have never seen in one book is that only a percentage of the litter is adversly affected in this manner if the dogs have good gentics to start with. The ones not adversly affected by extremely close breeding keep getting bigger. It may have to do with the fact that the airedale standard is about 50 lbs and one of the foundation breeds was the otterhound. That is a 100+ lb dog. The biggest lions in Africa are landlocked in a volcanic crater and are extremely inbred. Most books are written with the aim of discouraging close breeding from what I see.
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Postby DK1 » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:44 am

hicntry wrote: A good breeder keeps setting higher goals I think.

Yes, and a good breeder doesn't become kennel blind either. But once a breeder is consistently producing dogs at the high end of the standard, do these goals sometime's come from wanting to keep from being "bored" in one's breeding program? Because once a breeder has achieved becoming a quality producer, and their "common george" is above most everyone else's "best" - Maybe it's part of a good breeder's nature to always want to "fiddle" with something. :lol:


hicntry wrote: How many books have you read that states one of the obvious signs of inbred depression is the pups are noticeably smaller and more lethargic. They all say that. What I have never seen in one book is that only a percentage of the litter is adversly affected in this manner if the dogs have good gentics to start with. The ones not adversly affected by extremely close breeding keep getting bigger. It may have to do with the fact that the airedale standard is about 50 lbs and one of the foundation breeds was the otterhound. That is a 100+ lb dog. The biggest lions in Africa are landlocked in a volcanic crater and are extremely inbred. Most books are written with the aim of discouraging close breeding from what I see.


These are things I like to hear - personal experience. Hicntry, why do you think most books you have read discourage tight inbreeding? Did the authors never have great breeding stock to begin with? :wink: I've had this conversation before, but not on a forum. Many breeders have been doing it for a long, long time and have produced great results. I've come across a few articles that are all for it, but it does seem to be the common feeling amongst many dog owners that tight inbreeding is "taboo."
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Postby DK dreams » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:49 am

From all that I have read, the good and the bad, it seems that the breeders who didn't have the outcome they were expecting from this type of breeding probably did not choose the best examples of their breed. In other words, they were not correct in the dogs they chose. They may have had a fault that the breeder was unware of that was passed on and didn't know how to breed it out.
I have noticed that those who talk down this type of breeding are the ones who did not succeed and this is good because it is a strong warning for those who are considering it. this is not a hobby, this is a passion to produce the best. Much like wine making.
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Postby hicntry » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:08 am

Actually, I think it is considered cruel by many breeders because the survival rate is smaller when the lines are really tightened up. There are fewer viable pups. I think where most fail is that gut instinct is as essential as "total" objectivity. There is no room in tight breeding for the feint of heart, for lack of a better term this early. I think much of it also has to do with dollars. Most breeders cannot produce, say 5 or 6 pups, per litter in a breed that the average is 10 pups. The lost of revenue is significant in tight breeding.

The litter that was being born Sat. morning ended up with 5 males and 3 females that are all doing well. 80% is very good in my opinion. The last litter I had was 13 with 10 survivors. Not much different with different dams. As fertility is inherited, it is best to start off with very high producing females to start with. That breeding was half brother half sister. The previous one was a mother to son and got 6 out of 9. They were all raised outside in a suitable whelping box with temps dipping into the low twenties and snowing. I went out one morning and took a foot of snow off the roof of the whelping box. I try to keep the rearing as back to nature as possible because they are very closely bred. One observation that most breeders would do well in paying attention to is. "A healthy pup is crawling and crying when it hits the ground. If they are not, there is something wrong with them. I will leave it at that.

Now kennel blind. That is something I have been accused of being. :lol:
So I ask the posters(on the Real Working Airedale board) why they feel this way. Why? because I am always talking around my dogs was the answer. I just have to tell them how sorry I am for doing that and I make the suggestion that I will start talking about their dogs instead. Nope....they would rather I didn't. I suggested that one of these people, of this opinion, save a pup of his choice out of a litter he had last month and I will save one born out of Saturdays litter for the sole purpose of running them both on Master Fur in March. I suggested a wager. He declined because he didn't feel his pup at 12 mo could do a 300 yd track. He is the chairman of the Hunting Working committee for the Nat. Breed Club. I have always been more than willing to back up what I say. There should be about 10 HC dogs at the Nationals in March. There has never been one there. I am taking two, the others are from around the country. I told them they better break out their best because I am only coming to this shindig one time. I suggested they try to get more "working kennels" to show up also. The more the merrier I think. Unfortunately, airedalers just don't seem to be as competitive as FT's which is unfortunate in my mind.
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Postby orhunter » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:13 am

DK Dreams>

I sort of disagree with you. I think a breeder can start out with very good examples and still fail for several reasons. First, the dogs didn't "mix" well. Not every dog out there has the ability to pass on their most outstanding traits if the genetic mix is wrong. Second, the breeders who fail, probably give up to quickly because they get discouraged over the first couple of litters. Third, they start out with too few dogs. You need to try several "mixes" to find the best combination.
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Postby DrahtsundBraats » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:54 am

How much hip dysplasia is there in working sled dog lines? What wild canine types suffer a higher percentage of hip dysplasia? fox, coyote, wolves? If we feed low protein, low calcium, regulate exercise until 15 months, etc., will we increase the rate of HD or decrease it?

Personally, I think we need to be more critical-ask more and you eventually get more.

There are DNA tests for HD that are now in the proof of concept trials.
From what I understand, there are multiple markers-the combinations will probably need more study.
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