Culling GWP Puppies

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Postby Vom Britt » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:38 pm

Thanks Brandon, I won't forget. Just how many ducks, quail, chuckar, pigeons, and pheasants are you going to need for training this year :wink:

hicntry, no doubt we, because like I mentioned there are three of us that have a handshake agreement, will make our own decisions. We all have agreed on the chosen stud. You mentioned you won't give a big game hunter one of your dogs. I have an experience which you may relate to. I made what I feel is a major mistake 7 years ago when I sold a GSP pup out of the dog that got me involved in versatile bird dawgs to a pro trainer. I thought wow, this guy really is going to do something with him & in the NAVHDA system because he was heavily involved both as a judge and trainer. Turns out he needed cash and sold him to a shooting preserve. You can mark my words. NEVER again!
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Postby Jon » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:29 pm

That fella didn't live in Colorado did he? Had the same thing happen. Guy waited 1 1/2 years for a pup - sent him a good one. Called once to say the pup was a great complete package. Never tested the dog - sold him to a preserve in SD.
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Postby Vom Britt » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:15 am

No Jon, he wasn't. There isn't a greater teacher than experience.
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Postby Kyle » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:50 pm

Bob

My expeirience has been that the average buyer is not interested in breeding dogs. Most want to spay or neuter. To improve your stock I think it is more important to make sure that the more talented individuals get used for breeding than it is to worry about someone breeding a dog that is not worthy.

Good luck with your breeding.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:41 pm

Ahhh, and another topic is raised...
just how do we know when we are evaluating 8 wk old puppies, which is the most talented?
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Postby gary » Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:57 pm

IS THE ANSWER WE NEED......

Eight months ago I picked two pups from a litter of 8,these two pups
have had a lot of fun bird exposer, but the field trial judges placed one in 1st place over the other today in puppy stakes.......is this the approach that we should be takeing......?OR will we be sorry another year from now if 2nd pup is sold prematurely and makes the better dog?

PICKING THE RIGHT PUP SEEMS LIKE A CRAP SHOOT!
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Postby hicntry » Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:02 pm

Watch the ones that show the most promise until they are 12 weeks old then pick the one you liked at 8 wks as 9 times out of 10, there is a reason he caught your eye at 8 weeks. I guess that just works if you are the breeder. If you are a buyer, jest go with your gut and get him to a good trainer. If it is a good line, the training is probably more important than which pup you pick.
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Postby dualgwp » Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:02 pm

I always feel that by 1 yr old, you will see flashes of brillance from a pup. It may not be there always, but there is something, and it may not even be defineable, that you see. If by 1 yr old, you don't see that "something".. then it may not be there.

It may come sooner, may be something hits you when they are 12wks old, or 5 mos old... but there is always something. Unfortunately sometimes that baby brilliance is all that you will ever see, and then the dissapointment sets in. And then you may know your choice just didn't pan out.

But at 8 wks old? 10 wks? It's tough, unless you are really familiar with the patterns of the pedigree. That's where having a breeder that really knows his bloodlines comes in handy.

I wouldn't put too much weight on one placement at one trial.... it's not what they do today.. it's what they do over time that counts. Consistency...that's what is important.
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Postby Kyle » Sat Feb 05, 2005 7:13 pm

dualgwp wrote:Ahhh, and another topic is raised...
just how do we know when we are evaluating 8 wk old puppies, which is the most talented?


You can't. You must keep lots of your own puppies and then sell them as started dogs when you decide they are not suitable for breeding.

or

You must get them all in the hands of people who will breed them if they mature into the type of dog you are trying to produce. If you can't do either you will not have much of an impact on your breed.

Back to the original subject. It is to bad NAVHDA doesn't allow breeders to make the restriction that the dogs must pass the tests before they can produce a registered litter. I think minimum standards over the whole breed will take a breed in the right direction faster than a few dedicated breeders doing a good job. Lobbying NAVHDA to make a move in this direction would be worthwhile for breeders registering their dogs with them.

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Postby Vom Britt » Sat Feb 05, 2005 9:25 pm

Kyle, thanks for jumping in. One of the reasons Bodo left NAVHDA, as you probably know, is there wasn't any plan for breeding requirements with the new registry. I believe it is still a sorespot within NAVHDA. I could not agree more with you. My feelings (ya I know) are they should not only allow a breeder to restrict breeding on their pups, but a dog has to pass a Utility test before pups can become a NAVHDA registered dog :wink: Now that would truly mean soemthing! Which will never happen because we are talking loss of income. I am not much of a fan for NA testing but at least with a Utility title one would think the dog can handle the training pressure it takes to UT.
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Postby ME » Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:05 am

If NAVHDA did things like that would they also mark dog banned from breeding for agression or game leaving like the VDD? That is why it won't happen since it is not about the dogs but the PEOPLE in NAVHDA, oh and the $$$$..
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NAVHDA and money

Postby blathens » Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:53 am

ME, you and others have often brought up the issue of money as the motivating factor in many decisions NAVHDA makes. What exactly do you mean by that? Are there people in the NAVHDA organization lining their pockets at the expense of the membership? Are you saying NAVHDA should be on a 100% volunteer basis? Are you only speaking of the registry or are there other issues and policies you are against?
When an organiztion is small, money is not much of an issue because most things can be handled by volunteers. NAVHDA has grown to the point it must have income to provide the services it does and maintain it's professional image. There is nothing wrong with generating income to run the organization. Every club does it, every chapter has to do it. The bigger you get the bigger the expenses. I understand the registry was and is a controversial issue. I don't think John Kegel had "income" as the only factor in his idea of a registry. Many rarer breeds that have no formal registry in North America find it very important in the welfare of their breed.
Money is an important need for every organization and every person for that matter, unless you are a monk. It is not necessarily your guiding light, however. I have been a member of NAVHDA since 1975 when the newsletter was a 3 or 4 pages and hand typewritten. I am not interested in going back to those days.

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Postby Kyle » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:30 am

I think requiring dogs to pass NAVHDA tests before they can be used to produce NAVHDA registered litters would generate more revenue. More dogs would be tested. Most of the people registering with NAVHDA are already testing so you wouldn't lose registrations.

You would take some business away from the VDD breeders. I get people all the time that do not want their dogs to track a rabbitt. They tolerate it as a neccessary evil to get a dog out of tested stock. It is not that hard to get a dog through the tests in the VDD but knowing every dog in your dogs pedigree met the minimum requirements gives people a little more confidence that the dog will turn out. I would think the dedicated NAVHDA breeders would be lobbying for mandatory testing. It would benefit them and the people buying NAVHDA registered dogs.
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Postby Tony » Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:57 am

I would much rather do the research myself and choose a breeder that is producing dogs that meet or exceed my expectations than rely on a testing system and test scores. There are hundreds of UT dogs that I wouldn't feed let alone buy a pup out of.

I am all for the NAVHDA registry having a limited registration similar to the AKC's, as long as it could be reversed by the breeder. I would like to know why it hasn't passed when it was discussed at the Annual Meetings where is has been discussed.
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Postby Jon » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:42 pm

Seems to me that folks are expecting testing to be a definitive judgement of a dog. Will never happen. All it can ever do is serve notice that a dog, litter, or breeding line has been measured against reasonable standard of performance and hopefully done well. Is it any different in FT? An FC may mean that a dog ran 30 times, met the requirements but blew the birds out 20 times. For another it may mean the dog ran 10 times and was in the placements 6-8 times.

NAVHDA made a serious mistake when it decided not to honor a limited registration. There is no way NAVHDA can aspire to being serious about the breeding of good/better dogs without offering breeders this option.

I have just come back from Ohio from a training day watching young dogs tracking their first rabbits (a real hoot). It is difficult to believe how maligned this training/evaluation practice is. I won't repeat yet again why this evalution step has great value. But anyone with half an understanding of dogs WILL understand that tracking a pheasant 40 yds over grass is simple compared to tracking a rabbit through mixed cover for 3-400 yds. The NAVHDA NA tracking work is much easier compared to the JGHV tracking test for young dogs which all european versatile breeds perform. Anyone who doesn't understand that requiring more results in better talent obviously doesn't want more.

I don't think that DD (or DK) breeders would fear rising breeding standards in the VDD. It would just mean that NAVHDA was trying to reach the goals as established for decades by the european versatile dog organizations. Would help everyone and be better for all the breeds.
The VDD has been racheting up breeding requiremants steadily for decades. It would be a good thing for NAVHDA as well. But, my impression is that the Invitational has almost had that effect. Seems like everybody wants pups out of VCs.
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