Culling GWP Puppies

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Postby dualgwp » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:00 pm

I can only tell what I have done, and will probably do in the future. I am not in control of what anyone else does, nor will I tell others what they should or should not do.

I do co-own several males. They may or may not ever be bred. They will not be bred without my knowledge and the co-owner discussing which bitches they will be bred to. 90% of other males from my litters are usually nuetered. That is what the owners want and that's fine

I co-own bitches from most every litter I have bred. Those bitches will not be bred without my knowledge and consent. The bitches I co-own are either sold for a low amount, or given with the rules (and signed contract) that both owners agree on. . Yes, they pay the vet bills. Again, I'm not twisting anyones arm... it's totally up to them to agree to my terms, or not. If not, I will give them other names to call.

The people I co own with are hunters, showers, trialers and testers. They understand that certain things have to be accomplished with the bitch before we ever consider breeding them. I will sell a bitch outright, but only after a very long conversation with the possible new owner and only if I believe we agree on what is to happen with that puppy.

Does it work in every situation? No it doesn't. But it has worked for me and for my situation. If life were perfect, dogs would be all I would do, but unfortunately, I have a business to run, a family and a life outside of dogs. And I don't believe I could do justice to owning 25 dogs... not enough time to give them all. Others can and do, and lucky them!

If you co-own with like minded people, stay in touch with them, work with them and the dogs, stay open minded and try not to become kennel blind, it can work.

HC, you say most breeders are lucky to have 2 show puppies in a litter. Well, there are puppies that can be shown, and then there are show puppies. It's not any different than there are hunting dogs in a litter and then there may be that special one or two that really shine. Good breeding should give you dogs that work .... really good breedings give you that really special dog. I don't think anyone can say that every single pup in a litter (no matter if the parents are superstars or not) that are the absolute best in the world! Not if your honest. To be honest, any breeder that tells me every single puppy in a litter is a "show puppy" is a breeder I would be wary of. Either they are very new at what they are doing, or they are trying to sell puppies. The pups may not have disqualifying faults, but ........ they may not be puppies I would want to breed in the future.

As far as the 35%/65%.... without the good genetics, I'm not sure you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear... no matter how good or bad the enviroment.
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Postby KJ » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:06 pm

Broken Record aka 'Jon',
If you want to save some time, please just save any one of your 462 posts. That way, when you want to post in the future, you can just paste it...they all say the same thing anyways!

DD is the best because of bla bla....GWPs suck because bla bla....the germans know how to breed the best dogs for american hunting, bla bla


Dual,
When you sell a dog and co-own it, how many of the decisions do you get to make? Who gets to choose the stud of the dog is bred? Do you get a pup or half of the litter when they breed? Do you right up an agreement when you sell the pup? It sure sounds like a lot of headaches and problems down the road :?
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Postby dualgwp » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:39 pm

I've had a headache or two......comes with the territory.

Co-owning dogs isn't for everyone... you have to really trust those you own with, you have to like them, and they have to trust your judgement. If none of those things are there... don't do it!

I have had one or two agreements where I would get a puppy from a breeding "I" wanted done, and I paid the bills for the breeding. I don't get into getting puppies from every breeding... some do... doesn't work for me. I would rather just help people get nice dogs from these breedings and be proud of them. My agreements are pretty open, not very demanding as far as that sort of thing.

So the teamwork thing works in Germany, but couldn't possibly work here? I guess those Germans are just so far ahead of us.....totally
different! Oh yea, I forgot,.. sorry.

Some remarks made by some are just so off the wall... no dogs over 5 or 6.... hmmmmm
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Breeding

Postby gary » Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:21 pm

I will be breeding a female this year that is out of a old Nat Ch.artificial breeding,but was interested in looking at all the pups for field prospects.
Knowing that this might not be possible what would you suggest?
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Postby orhunter » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:29 pm

Kurzhaar:

You got your ducks in a row........

I've got a dog I may choose to breed, a year out at the earliest. I'm working on it now and the worry has set in. I've got the insight to know if I don't find the stud I want, I won't breed. It'll also be another year of hunting/training to know if my dog is breedable. Then I need to sell the pups before they're born. So many things to convince a person not to become a dog breeder and still some unqualified people, still do it. Not trying to say I'm qualified but I'm trying to get it right.
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Postby dualgwp » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:48 pm

Gary..not sure of your question?????
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Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:34 pm

Gary, I would say to look at the Nat'n Champs background if possible for at least the parentage and the grandparents to see if they thru pups that were top dogs. If so, good "chance" he will too. Otherwise. look at the pups but that is no guarantee either.

Orhunter, don't sell all the pups before they are born. Keep 2 or three spots open so you have some room if a couple are really outstanding. Then you can keep them and compare them for another month or so and then sell the others. If they are all sold before they are born you have no options no matter how great a pup may be there.

Dual, you're right, I can even show mine. I can take the 10 pt deduction for the size and another ten for the ears and may still come out ok. Since 90% of showing is visual, or phenotypical, it makes it really tough for a show person because everyone cans see what they see. The typey dog that appears perfect according to standard is just the foot in the door because they should "all" be typey if they made it that far so it is something very special that will usually set the winner apart. Maybe attitude, maybe the carriage of the head, but it will be something. I don't believe for a minute that working dogs cannot be bred with 80% success in a litter. Those show dogs have to be visually perfect. What a breeder of hunting stock should be striving for, is high consistency that is "above" par for the breed in the field. It is easier to produce titled dogs than it is to produce the perfect show dog because it is environment and training that will finish the dog out. My dogs will all hunt if I keep them. I ask the buyer if he knows how to start a big game dog. If I don't think he does, I tell them don't try, just teach them to come and keep them in the woods a couple of days a week at least. They will learn on their own, then just redirect them to what you want(of course I do advise them to break them off livestock first). I use my older dogs to train the younger ones and it is the only way but not everyone has this option. Dual, do you hunt your dogs yourself? Rely on others accounts of how well they hunt? Breed to paper? How do you make these decisions with all these co-owned dogs?
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Postby Vom Britt » Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:37 pm

Jon,
As long as the topic has strayed. You make it sound and would like people to believe tracking a deer or rabbit is some major accomplishment for an american versatile. Like I mentioned before we break our dogs off of unwanted game (trash) and the majority of times it is not a sight chase but when they are in the tracking mode. How do we know that? Because the deer has already gone by, followed later by the dog. Makes me wonder just how much time you have spent chasing birds in PA. and how many other breeds you have hunted behind?
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Postby Jon » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:06 pm

Vom Britt,
If you count the Terriers and hounds, probably a dozen or so. Don't doubt that your dogs do learn to track fur, but that was not the point I was making.

When you watch 8-12 month olds track hare for 500-1000 yds often over bare dirt, I was just saying that this is much more difficult that tracking a pheasant through ankle high grass for 40-50 yds. You wouldn't agree? Shows a heck of a lot more ability and big time desire. The point here is to find the young dogs with the greatest instinctive abilities. Obviously, tracking is not something that interests you beyond a 50 yd pheasant track. Each to his own.

Heh, I wish you well. Let's just say I'll stick with the original breed and you go ahead and make whatever you want out of the GWP. Between the show, FT, agility, flyball, 3 year old Junior Hunters, and pet stock, I'm sure you'll find plenty of variety.
Keep the breed versatile
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Postby ME » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:56 am

I believe it was a band called the "Talking Heads" that said it best... Same as it ever was.....Same as it ever was.....:lol:

Hunt your dog and be honest with yourself about what you see. If you are willing to lie to yourself about your dogs abilities, in the end you will only fool yourself when you breed... :cry:
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Postby gary » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:40 am

{{{What a breeder of hunting stock should be striving for, is high consistency that is "above" par for the breed in the field. It is easier to produce titled dogs than it is to produce the perfect show dog because it is environment and training that will finish the dog out}}}}

HIGH CONSISTENCY? Can this be breed,or is it a rare trait?Looking at trial records only a hand full of dogs consistly place 1,2,or 3 in all the National dog trials they entered...

That make's one think that alpha traits may play a part....If so,picking a pup that shows Alpha Traits could make it easier to pick a pup from a look-a-like pups litter of pups..

Many of these also ran dogs in record books, Win, but not consistly,and were handeled by reknown trainers and handlers... environment and training is part of the equasion, but bloodlines and select breeding is a must.

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Postby Vom Britt » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:01 am

Well Jon,

You said, "Too bad you DON'T see if your dogs can track rabbits." They can, that is why they are trash broke from them along with deer. I know, I don't understand the system. Gee, I thought you were referring to my own experiences with my dogs, sorry for becoming confused.

You said, "Too bad you DON'T insist that your dog be fearless in the presense of game." Makes me chuckle & I believe you know exactly what I am chuckling about concerning the aggression test. Send me a PM if you don't.

You said " Trying to create something" You are off base/thread. This thread I started has nothing and I mean nothing to do about creating something. Once again, it is about trying to IMPROVE what I have, by using what I feel are sound principles and judgement. I know the areas my dog needs tweaking and three years ago (3 Jon) found a male, which I believe can IMPROVE the breed and I didn't have to go to Germany(how many times have I read that through the years) to find him. Just across the WI. state line my search ended. Imagine that.

To all of you except Jon, thanks for your time and thoughts. Your comments have been helpful and informative, along without reading the my breed is better than your breed BS.

Bob
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Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:33 am

gary wrote:{{{What a breeder of hunting stock should be striving for, is high consistency that is "above" par for the breed in the field. It is easier to produce titled dogs than it is to produce the perfect show dog because it is environment and training that will finish the dog out}}}}

HIGH CONSISTENCY? Can this be breed,or is it a rare trait?Looking at trial records only a hand full of dogs consistly place 1,2,or 3 in all the National dog trials they entered...

>>>>> Of course it can be attained but it takes years. Why do you think the same people always have the best , well rounded dogs. Out of theses, above average dogs, occasuinally comes the diamonds in the rough....the top winners. And even at that, they will only be winners if someone recognizes what they are looking at and provides the environement. Besides, why would someone breed to attain average litters of dogs? Well, on second thought I guess a lot of people do it!!! :D :D <<<<<<


That make's one think that alpha traits my play a part....If so,picking a pup that shows Alpha Traits could make it easier to pick a pup from a look-a-like pups litter of pups,,

>>>>> I don't know why the previous has anything to do with the alpha pups, but, I have mentioned, two things in the past, one is that alpha dogs should be the breeders, and alpha dogs would do best in competition because they don't get squirrely on you when there is pressure. Of course, theses are just my opinions and most don't recognise a true alpha dog. They seem to think they are aggressive. :lol: :lol: <<<<<

Many of these also ran dogs in record books, Win, but not consistly,and were handeled by reknown trainers and handlers... environment and training is part of the equasion, but bloodlines and select breeding is a must.

Gary



It all figures in when the competition gets tough.
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Postby Brandon Ward » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:47 am

Bob,
Im glad you have decided to breed your bitch... obviously you have spent a great deal of time thinking of a quality stud.... What you are looking for in a dog would/should end up good if not great hunting dogs. What is discouraging is the disbeleif fron Jon not thinking the AKC/NAVHDA GWP can't hunt with the DD... I dont disagree that the foundation of the VDD testing and breeding system is sound and they have a very solid foundation of breeding stock. What I dont understand is why everyone has to argue about it... as breeders the goal should be to better the breed what ever way you slice it... I wouldnt want my dog chasing rabbits, skunks, racoons, foxes and deer... hey that is just me.. I think one breeder of Drahthaar's feels the same as I do (there was a article in Gun Dog mag not too long ago about him.. and his thoughts) AKC has some work to do on breeding in my mind but that is old news.... If there were more people like vombritt around, the AKC GWP would be in better shape in my mind. Hey Bob dont forget about me.. I thought I was the only one asking for ducks when the TCGWPC held there training days!!!
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Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:23 pm

Vom Britt asked a question and asked for opinions, for the most part that is what he got. Everyone, in the end will have to do what he/she thinks is the best way to serve their breed ....regardless of what others think. There are many that don't agree with things I do like "give" pups to breeders that I think are keeping the hunting airedale alive. I do this on the verbal agreement that they owe me a pup out of the one I sent them which gives me new blood also. One is going to a breeder in NM tomorrow morning. I also have a standing offer of a free pup to anyone that will train it to compete in the National Hunt test that are held yearly. One pup is being given to a world class trainer out of a litter I have on the ground to be titled in obedience first and then put into drug enforcement. I see this as helping the breed and giving me more insight as to what may be, or not be lacking in my lines. It gives me insights and gives airedales exposier in a variety of venues. Breeding a litter or two a year wouldn't make it possible. Will I give big game hunters dogs? No! I know what the dogs are capable of and very few know as much about working a dog as they think they do. It would prove nothing that I don't already know. In the end, Vom Britt will make his own decisions but maybe some of what was said by different folks will influence his decision.
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