Culling GWP Puppies

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Postby Kyle » Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:52 pm

I would much rather do the research myself and choose a breeder that is producing dogs that meet or exceed my expectations than rely on a testing system and test scores. There are hundreds of UT dogs that I wouldn't feed let alone buy a pup out of.


Tony
You are still allowed to do that in a breed club that has breeding restrictions. I don't think every dog that passes a test is a great dog either but I would rather know the dogs back in the pedigree that I can't find out anything about at least passed the tests. These tests are minumum requirements not the total assesment of the dog. The breeder still has to know what they are doing.


I am all for the NAVHDA registry having a limited registration similar to the AKC's, as long as it could be reversed by the breeder. I would like to know why it hasn't passed when it was discussed at the Annual Meetings where is has been discussed.


I don't have much expierience with AKC but the only examples of limited registrations I have seen is by show breeders who don't want competition for sales from within their own line.
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Postby Tony » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:10 am

By restricting registration to dogs with UT titles, NAVHDA would put their registry out of business. There are too many dogs outside of the system that have something to offer. IMO, the breeders should be able to decide which dogs they want to breed to and it is up to the puppy buyer to decide which breeder they want to buy from.

I don't know of any chapters that are having trouble filling up their tests. From what I have seen, most test are full with a waiting list because people are entering their dogs in multiple test in case they don't like their dogs scores and hope they will do better the following weekend.

By restricting registrations, a breeder will be able to protect their line from Mr. Everybody the dog breeder.
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Postby ME » Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:57 pm

There are many pro trainers who make a majority of thier money training dogs for NAVHDA tests. I have no problem with how they make thier living. These trainers get paid to test the dogs at tests that VOLUNTEERS put on. I hated when we would put on a test and there would be a couple of pros running 3 or 4 dogs that day. The purpose of NAVHDA was to teach the individual to train thier own dog to a reasonable level and the tests were their so they could see how they are doing. It isn't that way any more. These people are also high up in NAVHDA circles. Do you think that more than once a person made a desicion based on how something would affect their pocket book and not whether it was best for the breeds..? Of course they did, open your eyes..

Since 50% of NAVHDA judges have a NAVHDA registared kennel name. They have money to loose if the tests were made more realistic. You can train and have a mediocore get a UT 1 since the test only has certain elements. You can train to pass the test without ever hunting the dog. Then sell the dog as a great hunting dog and breed it. No system is perfect but you must do all you can to eliminate the conflicts of interest if you really want to go in the right direction... :wink:
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Postby Charles Busbee » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:42 am

Since I don't have a bone to pick with anyone, and don't know enough about your dog to run him down, let me ask a question. How do we determine that a dog is better than another without placing both dogs with the same trainer, spending the same amount of money, time, effort, ect. on each dog. Then the final test is in the percent of top quality pups produced. Again to determine the quality of the offspring in a just and fair manner, they would have to have all things equal in there rearing and training through out their life span. Is your dog better or has he just had the advantage of a better trainer? If he is taken from the thickly wood forest and placed in the open plains, or vice/virsa, is he still the better dog? The UKC coonhound reg. releases a list of their top stud dogs each year. Each breed has its own list. Some of the big name studs have over 1000 pups reg., others have as little as 200. Some have stud fees of $1000, others $200. But when you look at the percent of winning, titled dogs produced, it is often the dog who wasn't seen as the premier stud that has the best records. By saying that dogs must reach a certain level of training and obtain certain titles, doesn't the following go along with it? You must spend money to reg. with my registry. You must spend money to enter my test or trials. You must only spend money on stud fees on studs who spend money with my registry. You must buy my training in order to be assured of training your dog to jump through the right hoops. Can we say that the almighty dollar isn't involved in this to a large degree? Who determines the worth and value of a dog better than the man who feeds him? If he though your dog was better, he would be trying to buy him from you. He may not have been trained as well as others, but he was trained to his owners requirements, he makes his owner happy, fulfills his owners needs, who says he isn't as good??
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My thoughts......

Postby Waffenmeister » Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:54 am

I'll chime in here with my opinion, as a new GWP owner.

What attracted me to the breed, was the fact that are so versatile. I also liked the coat, temprament, and bushy face. I did my research, and without getting into the GWP/DD debate, I went with a NAVHDA registered GWP. I trusted the breeder, watched the sire work and took a female pup. Mine is black and white and is the boldest pup I ever owned. To my delight, I researched her pedigree to find a few VDD dogs in there.

Just for fun, I joined GWPCA to see. As I suspected, 95% of the dogs in the monthly magazine are "show" dogs. And, they want nothing to do with black dogs.

I have since dual registered my pup with the UKC. I used to be around alot of coon hunters, and UKC was the way to go if you wanted a hunting dog.

I plan on NAVHDA testing my dog, and also attending the UKC events and HRC tests. Maybe down the road, if she works out I will breed her back to another black dog or nice dark liver one.

I think you should pick a breeder/dog that best suits your needs and go with it.

I hunt mainly ducks, grouse, and pheasants. It is cool though to have a dog that could track rabbits or find a wounded deer if needed.

JMHO.
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Postby bill10979 » Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:02 pm

"Maybe down the road, if she works out I will breed her back to another black dog or nice dark liver one."
Not sure about AKC, but the VDD in America forbids breedings of solid braun(liver) to black roan dogs-you'll end up with a bunch of black dogs that arent registerable by the AKC-youre messing with dominant gene traits in so doing. Then youre stuck with a bunch of pups that may/maynot have a hard time placing. I wonder if Navhda would accept a Black wire, not roan or schimmel but black? FCI wont take it, AKC wont take it, why would Navhda?The VDD would probably ask it to be culled or spayed at the very least. Even black roan to roan, pups arent registerable in AKC. What do you do with them? Hard enough to place pups with great pedigrees.

Alot more important traits to consider besides color. IMO-desire,nose, cooperation, point, track, retrieve and not necessarily in that order, in addition to coat. The more posts I read, the more I favor the VDD. Theres is nothing like a Cooperative to help better a breed. The "do it yourselfers" can have at it, and I wish them the best.

Tracking rabbits and deer isnt necessarily inherent in the GWP(if even present ),but for a few. Ive seen enough DDs to know that it isnt, and theyre tested for it. Some excel, some are average at best. Never run hares but probably a better furred game for the dog and gun. Cottontails in thick cover just doesnt suit a 55-80lb dog like a 15lb Beagle. Ive hunted mine with a Beagle a few times to know and had run rabbits circled back by my DD but the cover has to be ideal for the dog. A rabbit track is a tough track IMO.
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Postby Waffenmeister » Sun Dec 25, 2005 7:21 pm

I guess I should have been more specific.

What I meant by possibly breeding my dog down the road was to another black and white, or a dark liver roan dog, not a solid one.

I personally feel that the black and white GWP is gaining acceptance by hunters who could care less what the AKC likes or thinks.

Like I said earlier, alot of us who hunt really like the UKC and NAVHDA. Almost all coonhunters I know would not touch an AKC coonhound breed. Because they know that these dogs could not find a coon if they were locked in closet with one. I suspect that AKC GWP's are the same to a large degree.
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Postby bill10979 » Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:19 pm

I wonder why the UKC hasnt become more popular as a breed registry vs. the AKC especially among hunters. I know it is very popular with coon hounds. I think the hunt tests are well accepted and are gaining popularity with the retreiver folks.
My experience with HRC folks is very positive. I will be titling my DD this Spring. Incidentally, 2 of the 6 DD/GWPs titled in HRC are from her pedigree-dam and granddam. The tests are very hunt realisitic which I support. Ive noticed a Boykin and a GSP have competed at pretty high levels. Not sure how far we'll go, lately my schedule has been brutal and the tests book up fast I learned sadly last Spring.
As far as Blacks go, if hunters like them, its a plus for the breed. Keep em away from the show folks, who dont have a clue as to what versatile even means. Some folks assume because it has whiskers, it can do it all, and well. I have resigned myself to accepting that any breed must have a large body of humble minded folks committed to the breeds betterment, and this includes testing and evaluating hunt stock, working to achieve standard in coat/conformation/temperment and drive. Its no easy task. From what I can gather, the DD has made great strides in the last 25 or so years. Cant say much about the GWP because Im not informed enough. Ive never seen "bird dogs" track or retreive like DDs though.
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Postby dualgwp » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:02 am

Please continue to do some research on your breed before you consider breeding down the road.
There are rules to the breeding of black dogs, and if you wish to follow the German standards, and even the dreaded AKC standard (those horrible show people) it will serve you and the breed well.

Just to toss it out so you can start your reasearch....
Black and white is not to be bred to black and white
Black and white is not to be bred to solid liver
Black and white is only to be bred to live and white ticked or roan dogs.

You see, we are not against black and white dogs, we are however against those who are looking only at the color of the dog and do not wish to follow any breeding rules at all.

Do some research, train and test your dog, and then hopefully you can make a responsible and educated decision down the road.
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Postby Waffenmeister » Mon Dec 26, 2005 10:16 am

dual,

thanks for the advice on the colors. Before I picked my pup, I did quite a bit of research on both the DD and the GWP. Although I'm sure that DNA says that both are the same, it is obvious that they are different in breeding, testing and use.

I picked my GWP because of the background of the sire and dam, and I have been around both and liked their temperment, and the way they perform hunting. I got second pick and I took my black and white one because of her boldness and the way she looked.

At 8 weeks she is nose to the ground digging out nuts that squirrels have buried in my backyard. She is also pointing doves, and grouse and pheasant wings that I place throughout the yard in little 10 minute fun sessions. Good signs I believe.

Didn't mean to slight the AKC. They all serve a purpose. I think you will see more and more hunters go UKC. They just do not have the exposure yet.
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Re: Culling GWP Puppies

Postby Densa44 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:32 pm

Give this a bit more thought. Do you want to be know as a person who knowing both bred and then sold inferior dogs? I'll bet not.

Why try to breed pups that you will be proud of and be happy to keep any one of them?
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: Culling GWP Puppies

Postby gusto » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:59 am

This thread is 10 years old! Dig back farther to find the American Wirehaired Pointer threads!
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Re: Culling GWP Puppies

Postby orhunter » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:41 am

At least there's someone out there reading the old stuff.
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Re: Culling GWP Puppies

Postby Densa44 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:34 pm

If you truly are trying to breed the best dog you can, why cull any pups? Put a breeding restriction on the pups, all of them and agree to remove it if the dog gets a UT prize.

What's wrong with that? I have a big concern over people picking "winners from pups".

For example when I was buying my first PP I wanted the non fuzzy one, the breeder wouldn't sell me the smooth coated one so I took Ginnie, now she has a NA 112 and a UT 1, plus a breeders award, the "nice looking one" had to be given away.

My point here is, unless you are breeding dogs for what they look like, not how they perform, I think you may have it backwards.

Let the dogs decide who should get to produce the next generation.
Pine Ridges Ginnieve NA 112 UT pz 1 200
Camridge's Sienna NA 112 UT pz 1 204
Foothill Joce NA 112
Czarina Vom Oberland VJP 70 NA pz 112
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Re: Culling GWP Puppies

Postby LongHammer » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:55 pm

Vom Britt wrote:My GWP we plan on breeding her next heat cycle. We are gong to try and do what we feel is improving the breed by culling out pups if any, we feel are undersirable for potential breeding. By culling I am referring to placing in a home with restricted breeding rights. The pups the plan is to dual register. With one registry, the only way we can possibly restrict breeding is to co-own the dog. Seems backwards to me, I always thought the reason to co-own was to be a part of what one feels are the best dogs in a litter, not the worst. Any opinions on the subject?


Going back to the original post, why don't you just get the non breeders clipped and sell them as pets. Seems like it would save a ton of coowner restricted breeding rights bs. The dog doesn't know his breeding rights have been restricted :lol: what's to keep him from hopping the fence. :multi:
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