Culling GWP Puppies

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Culling GWP Puppies

Postby Vom Britt » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:11 am

My GWP we plan on breeding her next heat cycle. We are gong to try and do what we feel is improving the breed by culling out pups if any, we feel are undersirable for potential breeding. By culling I am referring to placing in a home with restricted breeding rights. The pups the plan is to dual register. With one registry, the only way we can possibly restrict breeding is to co-own the dog. Seems backwards to me, I always thought the reason to co-own was to be a part of what one feels are the best dogs in a litter, not the worst. Any opinions on the subject?
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Postby db7 » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:11 am

You could prepare a contract that "fosters" the pups to the new home. You keep title to the dogs, transfer the title only after the dogs have been neutered/spayed as required in in the contract. That way you can take back the dogs if there is no compliance.
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Postby Hunter » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:08 pm

How do you know which pups are culls at 8 weeks, other than obvious physical defects?

Are you selling the culls at a lower price?
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Postby KJ » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:30 pm

Vom Britt,
Assuming you are talking about AKC, why not do a limited registration?

As Hunter stated, how will you decide which pups to cull? Will you just cull obvious physical defects (bite, eyes, etc.)? I would think it would be a huge risk that you might regret if you cull on anything other than physical defects at 8 weeks old (unless of course you can change your decision later).
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Postby Jon » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:17 pm

There is no way to stop folks from cross-registering and breeding as they like, other than retaining ownership. NAVHDA will not recognize a limited registration so the AKC limited registration is very easily circumvented. I doubt you will find many folks who want you as a part time owner. Also, remember that if the dog bites someone, runs in front of a car and causes an accident, etc, as an owner you are liable. Maybe not a great risk with one dog but if you plan to do this a lot, its a consideration.

You can only hope to place the pups in good (honorable) hands. Ultimately, trying to steer the fate of your breed from your kennel room will be a difficult undertaking.
Keep the breed versatile
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Postby db7 » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:37 pm

You can deal with potential laibility issues with the fostering contract angle. Essentially it could be written as a lease.
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Postby Vom Britt » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:23 pm

KJ, no I am not talking about the AKC. I can restrict/limit breeding rights through them, which I may add can be changed by the breeder & would be more than willing to if there is an obvious change in the dog. Yes, we are going to cull the obvious defects like lack of coat, and yes culled pups will be sold at what we feel is a reasonable and fair price but with restrictions.

Good points John & db7, I appreciate your input. Culling may be a difficult undertaking to say the least, but we will know we have done our part in trying to improve the breed.
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Postby Jon » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:56 pm

IMHO, the only way to make a positive impact on the breed is by gathering educated folks together who are willing to put some breed priorities above their own egos and fame. Whenever you run into someone who's out to make a statement through his/her dogs, be skeptical. Rarely is the breed profited by folks who are overly interested in their own press and "glossies".

What does improve the breed mean? How could the GSP get any better, for instance? There are so many good GSPs right now, just how do you breed better dogs? There have always been great dogs in any breed - the future greats aren't going to be better. The challenge is to motivate those who would settle for less in a breed. There will always be a few great breeders and dogs.
Keep the breed versatile
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Postby Vom Britt » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:41 pm

Jon, maybe you should take a look at your own ego, if I read your last post correctly. The thread is about the GWP, so let's stick to the breed if you don't mind. I started it because I contacted NAVHDA about breeding rights and was told the only way we, (we meaning three of us who got together, formed a handshake partnership, and decided what we like and are going to try and breed GWP for the type of hunting GWP we prefer) would be able to control breeding would be via co ownership. You are out of line as usual when it comes to discussing the GWP. Why is that? Don't bother, I have heard it way to many times. I'll take the pup from the little guy who I have researched and know who cares about the breed, than those few great breeders you talk about, any day.
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Postby Jon » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:52 pm

Vom Britt,
Read my post again - can't see anything egotistical about it. You do know how to read?

Good luck with your co-ownership scheme. Its been tried for years by show breeders and it accomplished nothing. Why not breed the best dogs you can and let the chips fall where they will? Why the need to control what folks do with their dogs? The best way to keep the "culls" from being bred is to sell them without papers (if they don't need to be put down). Then there is no chance of any offspring being registered.
Seems all senseless to me. Best to keep it simple. Wait til folks start bringing back the dogs that you own because they're not what they wanted.

As far as being in love with the little breeder, it always amazes me that folks think that you can get somewhere breeding dogs by being a little breeder. The only way to be successful, establish a prepotent line of dogs is to breed a lot and avoid kennel blindness. The only other way is to buy the end product from someone who has done the work. But then you're just putting your kennel name on someone elses breeding. If you're going to combine lines of existing stock with the idea of creating a "type" or "strain" of your own, you'll probably need to breed a lot, not a little, unless you have extraordinary luck.

So, will you be breeding a new and improved GWP? new color? 30lb instead of 50lb? :)
Keep the breed versatile
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Postby york_rotch » Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:02 am

The first breeder I spoke with offered such a contract, and like Jon said, they were show people. The idea of co-ownership did not sit well with me. The ownership agreement ceased to exist once the dog was fixed. I felt the breeder had little confidence in their stock, and ran away.

We are gong to try and do what we feel is improving the breed by culling out pups if any, we feel are undersirable for potential breeding


The way I understand it, maybe 1 pup in a litter will be of breeding stock, maybe. Then it is up to the owner to do right by the pup, and give it every oppurtunity to reach it's potential. If you want to do right by the litter, put together a brief training plan, and offer some training support. Maybe even goes as far as to ask that each pup be tested in a NAVHDA NA test. And put the pups into hunting homes.

This way you will know whether you have indeed "improved the breed".

Good luck,

Mitch

p.s. from dictionary.com

culling:
1. To pick out from others; select.
2. To gather; collect.
3. To remove rejected members or parts from (a herd, for example).
n.
Something picked out from others, especially something rejected because of inferior quality.

p.p.s I thought culling was introducing poor pups to water VERY early
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http://www.wirehairhunts.com
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Postby db7 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:15 am

Jon wrote:Good luck with your co-ownership scheme. Its been tried for years by show breeders and it accomplished nothing. Why not breed the best dogs you can and let the chips fall where they will? Why the need to control what folks do with their dogs?


It has avoided countless breedings by people that haven't a clue about responsible breeding.

Wait til folks start bringing back the dogs that you own because they're not what they wanted.


Any ethical breeder ought to take back a dog and re-home it should it not fit the home it was originally sent to.
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Postby Hunter » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:41 am

Jon is correct in that if you really want to improve the breed you need to breed on a fairly large scale. One litter a year or less is not going to have any impact on the breed. If you want to improve the breed you need to have several quality litters every year. You also need the good pups you produce to be bred. Can you imagine how different the English Pointers would be now if Bob Wehle never allowed anybody to breed a dog from his stock? There is a case of everybody riding on somebody else's work, how many ads for english pointers don't have "Elhew" mentioned at all.

Who determines whether a pup out of the litter is breedstock? I am sure there are people that would never consider breeding your GWP, just as you would never consider breeding GWPs other breeders think are great. Every individual has a different "ideal" dog; there are very few dogs that fit the picture of everybody's ideal. If you sell a dog and the owner thinks it is a great dog, why should they not be allowed to breed it if they choose?

Was there any breeding restrictions place on your dog when you bought it as a pup?

your crotch is also right, if you are lucky, you will get one pup that is worthy of breeding out of the litter.

db7, How many irresponsible breedings of versatile hunting dogs has this method stopped? This is mostly a ploy put in place by breeders who want to maintain control of the "supply" of pups. They are allowed to breed whatever dogs they want, when they want, as much as they want but nobody that buys a pup from them is allowed to breed. What a great way to make money, you insure that you are the only source of a product!

Are you saying every ethical breeder will guarantee the quality of thier pups and will buy back the pup at the purchase price if it doesn't work out with the new owner?
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Question for Breeder

Postby kurzhaar » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:25 pm

One of the questions I like to ask breeders is this: "Where will you go to breed one of the puppies from this litter?"

To me, breeding needs a plan. I have one litter one the way this spring and I already have two or three potential studs identified for the female we plan to keep. We might not use the studs, but we are planning ahead to follow a plan. All too often "breeders" simply put the "best" with the "best" or just two dogs together without a plan for the litter or "improving the breed"

Jim
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Postby Vom Britt » Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:09 pm

Last edited by Vom Britt on Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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