Breeders knowing their pups

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:49 pm

STait wrote:And when you say strongest, you are talking mentally strongest, right? That's a great place to start!


You bet. You want to breed off of the leaders not the followers. Forgot to mention that when there are several strong, confident pups, that is when you can look to other things when choosing among the. During the next four to six weeks out of the pups that didn't make the cut you will see bullies and the bullied. I have never seen one in the super confident group bully or be bullied. They are the cream that rises to the top....you just have to recognize them BEFORE the environment starts masking what you have.

Also, everything isn't as cut and dried as many non breeders and novices make them out to be. In that pedigree I posted where Winchester is constantly bred in. He was not a great dangerous game dog as he had no fear. So why is he the predominate dog in the pedigree? Because he was more than he needed to be and he kept the line strong.
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:21 pm

I gotta say, thinking back to where my pups went, the boldest went to the most experienced, and for the boys the boldest was also the most talented.
I wondered often if it was a size/maturity thing, or if the pattern would hold as the next few years went on.

So far, all 6 puppy buyers are sending updates. Here's the boldest female.

http://youtu.be/dFSNumjNuLM
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby marjolein » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:51 am

STait wrote:
marjolein wrote:Is the best or strongest the most talented pup from the litter? No, not necessarily and I think that's the only thing that matters.

I'm not interested in the pick of the litter, I'm interested in a pup from the best litter possible (obviously only if the pup is healthy and sound in character and build properly).


How do you determine "most talented" at 7 weeks old??

My point exactly. That's impossible.

STait wrote: I can determine traits and watch those traits develop to 7 or 8 weeks old. And even more will be shown at 10-12 weeks. But when I think of talent, I think of those traits being exposed to the environment and tasks. Take two puppies that are almost identical in traits and give one to a person that hunts 10 days a year and the other to a person that hunts 100 days a year, and after one year you will see a real difference in talent. I am assuming you meant potential talent? And that in my mind is what AG's post was about.

Yes agreed, a handler can make or break a dog. But if a mediocre dog is in the hands of a superb handler winning everything, makes that the dog more talented than a superb dog in the hands of a mediocre trainer who never wins anything? I think not. And it's these (unnoted) dogs that are valuable for the breed. The first maybe too, especially for it's trainability.
It takes a very experienced eye to see what is really there and not what we all think is there. I'm afraid I'm not that experienced.
I believe talent is something the dog is born with and it's up to the handler to bring out the best of it.

STait wrote:AG, I too prefer the pup that is "hunting" the earliest, using his/her nose and brain in unison.

From experience I changed my mind about picking the pup that shows most potential at the age they all leave the litter. The pup from my litter that was the most unnoted, is showing really big things now at the age of 2. She's in the hands of an inexperienced handler with her first Setter. We just cannot predict where they'll be at the age of 2 or older.....

STait wrote:Dang, I love puppies!!

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:51 am

"From experience I changed my mind about picking the pup that shows most potential at the age they all leave the litter. The pup from my litter that was the most unnoted, is showing really big things now at the age of 2. She's in the hands of an inexperienced handler with her first Setter. We just cannot predict where they'll be at the age of 2 or older....."

I have seen this too, part of it can be environment, and some pups just take longer to mature. But, I'm not going to hang onto a litter until they're two years old before deciding which one I like the most.

I've also seen exactly what Don is talking about where the other pups are bullies, or are bullied. And, the ones that are standing out as independent, courageous puppies are not messed with individually.

Now, here's a question for you all. What if some of the traits on one of the other B, C, D, or even G puppies are extraordinary, and he/she really stands out. Do you keep them for breeding only to keep one or two of their A class puppies later on??? (Okay, maybe not the G puppy, but one of the talented non-pick puppies). I kept one female from a litter last year that might fit into this scenario. She is developing just as I hoped. I just have to see what her puppies will be like.
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:14 am

Steve, I learned to never keep any pup that failed the A class test at weeks. Another thing I noticed is that as time goes on, I would think I picked the wrong pup because individual behaviors change on a regular basis due to environmental encounters. Drove me nuts and I would start doing what I see most people do....I would start changing my mind back and forth and over thinking everything. Then, in a few weeks, I liked the original pick again. What I do is make my pick and stick with it because I realized. what I saw as blank slates was the real deal. The changes are pretty much caused environmental issues and will keep changing back and forth.

Marjolien and Steve keep bringing up talent. That is just over thinking things largely from pier pressure and largely from people that use the method coming down through the ages that just about any and pair of dogs can produce a few good one's.....or breed to only titled dogs and you will produce a few good ones. The criteria is flawed to start with. It is like playing the lotto. Breed for consistency through the whole litter and do it your way. because no one knows your dogs like you do. I had one titled dog, HC Odin, in my life. He was one of 16 dogs in 22 years that ever passed the Master Fur test. Never included him in the breeding because, title or no title, I had much better dogs in the yard and I knew it. On the other hand, I bred, to a DDR dog, not a hunting title in his life, and produced some really great dogs. What I am saying is that, if you started with really good dogs in a breed that was developed for hunting, such as pointers, they have the genetics there and you would have to make a concerted effort to ruin them. If you breed to a G level pup because you think they have more talent and/or are easy handlers, eventually, you are going to be producing more G level pups.
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby marjolein » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:25 pm

hicntry wrote:What I am saying is that, if you started with really good dogs in a breed that was developed for hunting, such as pointers, they have the genetics there and you would have to make a concerted effort to ruin them. If you breed to a G level pup because you think they have more talent and/or are easy handlers, eventually, you are going to be producing more G level pups.


That's exactly what I said in my first post. In my second post I am talking about pups from a litter like that.
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:36 pm

I read you loud and clear Don. And I agree, I know my dogs and know what I want in them going forward. What about gender? This female I am talking about I considered the A female (of 3), but, I chose her brother over the whole litter. So, she was "technically" not the A puppy in the litter. Interestingly though, the person (my trainer) that has handled them on foot and from horseback on wild birds, will undoubtedly pick the female as her favorite of the two. So, at a year old, that "talent" thing is showing and making a difference at least in some people's view. Of course, the male pup may pass her up as he matures.

I believe you are right about making the right selection as clean plates and have also had the same feelings back and forth because they do change places as the environment affects them. I may make a mistake in my choices and realize it may not even show up for a couple generations, but my curiosity keeps me wanting to find out what will come of my choices. Even though they may not be as strict as yours Don. But, I will always keep your advice at the top of my thoughts when making a decision on a pick.

Interesting thread anyway. And the main reason I come to this forum is to read breeding threads with your (HC) experience involved. My dogs aren't versatile dogs, just 100% bird dogs!
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:37 pm

Marjolien, going back and re-reading your first post, I agree. I misinterpreted what you were saying obviously. At any rate, I think what is being said needs repeating. I really appreciate both your and Steve's input. I do think I am getting a bit off track in as much as how so many breeders not have a clue as to what each of their pups bring to the table is beyond me....and then blatantly participate in a discussion regarding how well/not well any breed is doing. How would they know if so many don't even know what they are producing????

I am going to go get ready for happy hour. LOL The dogs won't let me miss it because that is when the get combed out....or maybe I won't miss it and combing them is my excuse for good whiskey, cigars and chew.. Who knows. Getting off track again. :lol: :lol:
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby marjolein » Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:56 am

hicntry wrote:I do think I am getting a bit off track in as much as how so many breeders not have a clue as to what each of their pups bring to the table is beyond me....and then blatantly participate in a discussion regarding how well/not well any breed is doing. How would they know if so many don't even know what they are producing???


The thing nowadays is, the more you brag about your own dogs, the more pictures you post online, the more people see you posting about dogs, the more they believe you are the best breeder ever. I think people are a bit over confident nowadays and have no clue how to reflect anymore.

Good thread btw, very interesting reading!!!!
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am

Definitely some truth to that Marjolein. However, part of the way my current litter's puppies have been placed, is by other people, that have my dogs from previous litters, bragging about them on the internet. One fellow that got a female from me a year ago has sold 3 out of this litter himself. Actually one is going to him and the other two are going to his bird hunting friends that have seen his pup from last year handle birds. Nothing better than letting other people doing your advertising for you! Also, nice to pick and choose who gets your puppies.

I will probably only produce two, or maybe three litters a year at best, so I'm not necessarily going to flood any market by any means. I'm more interested in learning more my dogs, and if I can produce a more consistent type and quality, I'll be thrilled. My platform is held up on the shoulders of the two breeders I am trying to follow. Both of those breeders are alive and still producing excellent bird dogs. I'm just combining what I consider the best of both worlds. I'm fairly new to it so who knows, I may have to start over somewhere along the line. But, for now I'm have a very interesting time of it.

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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:49 am

OMG Marjolein, I put pictures of my dogs up all the time but with a more educational purpose(ad nauseum) rather than showing them off. I feel reliable info needs to come from somewhere/someone or, dogs as we/I know them are going to be a thing of the past because there is just so many myths being perpetuated. Socialization being one of the big ones. Pictures make it more real than words.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby marjolein » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:59 am

Of course I post pictures too and I brag about them. But most posts I see on fb and on fora are from people who don't have a clue but they sound like they know it all.
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:18 pm

M, I never have been on "social" media and have no intentions of doing so. I much prefer the atmosphere here. LOL
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby JONOV » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:58 pm

HC,

I thought your line of thought sounded familiar. I dug out an old book "The Sportsman's Guide and Tap's Tips" by HG Tappley, published in 1964. He gave the same advice; pick out the boldest dog you see, and offered the caveat that that puppy was probably already picked by the breeder.

Out of curiosity, how often would you later sell that "A" puppy, or otherwise decide that he wasn't appropriate for your breeding program?
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Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:17 pm

Wow, haven't heard of Tap's Tips for years. His knowledge is definitely from a different era.

"Out of curiosity, how often would you later sell that "A" puppy, or otherwise decide that he wasn't appropriate for your breeding program?"

Tough question Jonov. In the beginning, I did things one way. As time went on, my perspectives changed as did my methods. The one dog that stands out that I would never use was Odin, the 2007 Master Fur dog. He just wasn't that great compared to others I had. The fur test given at the time was taken right from the German test and just wasn't that hard. It was the minimal 300 yd test(Probably because Airedales aren't in any sporting class) because people wanted a test that they had a chance at passing. Odin was the sixteenth dog in 22 years to pass it, but, I had to many dogs that would run 5 mile + tracks and I had to run tracking collars on them to find them. For those here that have actually hunted fur with hounds....300 yards was less than impressive unless you are running 5 to 6 month old pups. Heck, 1000 yards isn't impressive to anyone that has hunted behind hounds. I believe AG has hunted behind hounds and will know what I am talking about. As a result, I expected my dogs to run a track like a hound. Actual breeder/hunters have goals that are continually changing and because of that their program changes as their goals change.. An example I can use to illustrate this is Airedales were quick, but not fast. I ran the young dogs in groups of about five over varied terrain and selectively bred the easiest runners. In 3 years, the whole body style changed(form follows function). In this case, some of the A dogs were never used because there were A dogs that fit the goal better. Next, I noticed that the dogs rarely hunted beyond 300 yards because Airedale are basically winding dogs. I took notice of the dogs that had more range and selectively bred them and a few generations later, I had to use tracking collars because they were taking track for miles and I didn't have a clue where they were. This eliminated the shorter range A class dogs for the ones that would go miles. All kept dogs were the hard charging, confident 4 week old dogs. As you can see, the ones that were put into service, are the ones that fit the goals for what I wanted. Since they had extreme hunt in them, I never tried to guess which was the more "talented"......just wanted the hard chargers to keep the line strong. What I have described is not possible if breeders can't tell what they are producing....but maybe they aren't actually breeding.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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