Breeders knowing their pups

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:46 pm

There has been so much misinformation being given out as of late in regards to breeders no recognizing what they are producing, I think it would be a good topic. When breeders (quite a few apparently), raise a litter of pups from ground zero and can't tell, the best, or strongest in the litter, something is wrong. Not only pick the strongest, but they should have a real good idea of where each pup falls from the strongest to the weakest. First off, much depends on what the pup is being picked for.....breeding or for a new owner that has certain expectations. When a poster claims that it is crazy for anyone to claim to be able to pick the right pup at 7 weeks, he may be right. It is much safer to pick them at 4 weeks if they were handled right by the breeder. Don't have time to get into it right now, but, if anyone thinks it is worth discussing, let me know, if not, I am good with that and won't waste my time. :wink:
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:50 pm

The strongest? Or the most talented??

We did a lot of exposure with my litter, not just to see which pup was the first up the stairs, but which had the early propensity for tracking, which was most likely to point, and which stayed close vs. being independent.

The only puppy to point AND track at 5 weeks was also the most independent. This puppy had one testicle at 6 weeks, and it still was not present at 8 weeks. It's not unusual to have a late bloomer, but do you keep this puppy and hope?? Or do you take the puppy with the best looks, good pointing/tracking, and significantly less independent.

Do you see the standout puppy Hicntry? I suspect we would have picked the same puppy in this group.
https://youtu.be/UPBzdjeES6o
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:43 pm

One of the great things about being the breeder is that you can watch the pups develop before anyone comes to pick their puppies. I have seven puppies right now, 2 1/2 weeks old. All are sold, all going to people out of state, and all my clients have told me what traits they are wanting in their pup.I have a good idea of what their traits will be, except for one. How calm they will be when touched by human hands. Two pups are already standing out even though I don't handle them hardly at all. I check in the box a couple times a day and just started picking them up to see how they respond. I won't handle them hardly at all until 4 weeks old and weaning has begun. One client is an upland guide and wants a super bold pup. So, I won't worry about his calmness. The rest I will do my best to pick what they want since all are being shipped.

Anyway, I'm up for a discussion on the subject. I like your video MissK but having only one view of your litter I can't tell much. I assume you like the independent pup and I like that too. Is that the pup you want to keep for yourself?

Here's a one time view of one of my litters from last year. Doubt you can pick the two I kept. I doubt it only because this one 22 second video just doesn't give you enough information. So, as a breeder it's one thing to pick an extraordinary puppy, but being a buyer, it's a whole other issue. I like my position as a breeder!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOYlNws30g
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby JTracyII » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:02 pm

STait wrote: Doubt you can pick the two I kept. I doubt it only because this one 22 second video just doesn't give you enough information.


I absolutely agree with the above statement.

I am wondering if breeders here have been able to see several dogs from a particular litter after having grown up and note whether there seemed to be a correlation between what they saw at 4-8 weeks and their temperament,etc. as an adult. Specifically, as compared to other litter mates. For example, does it seem the dog that was identified as the boldest seem to be the boldest as an adult, etc.? The thing is I would imagine that once they leave your house the way the owner works with and develops them would likely have a significant impact too.
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1677
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:12 pm

Steve, it is a short clip with pups running wild, but, my guess would be the two pups leading the rest down the field. That is what I would look for. I love your dedication to what you are breeding. That is what really separates breeders from the rest.

Miss K the first thing I noticed the first time I saw your video is that you had the pups following their mother. Can't tell much about the individual pups that way. The only one I would even look at, undoubtedly the one you would pick also, is the one pup that left the group and went on it's own and came back to you and immediately left on its own. Since the rest stayed together following mom, I can't say anything good about them. There is no choice there but the one pup. As for the other videos you posted with the pups running down the birds and dragging them around by the head.....I thought that early introduction and allowing young pups to maul the birds was frowned upon in training circles. Remember what I said about how quick behaviors are set in pups that are basically a blank slate?

Tomorrow, I will describe how I pick pups, but, I will also explain why most people can''t do it today because of the way they handle pups.

JTracy, you should get into breeding. Your interest in it tells me you would be dedicated because you want to learn....just haven't made the leap.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby randomnut » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:33 pm

STait, Short clip for sure, but I liked what looked like a solid white one nearest the camera. Kept his nose to the ground more than others, second for me would be the one with brown left ear furthest away.

MissKiwi, I thought the one that got separated from the others was just trying harder to keep up with mom. Dark colored pup in back seemed less interested in keeping up with the others, possibly more independent. IMO
randomnut
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:41 pm

Yes, the orange collar pup was above and beyond the most outgoing pup, while still checking in. He never stopped to whine when momma got out of sight, he circled and figured out where the group went.

All the boys were more precocious than the girls. The most independent of the girls was also the best tracker.

The mother of the litter was the first out of the whelping box and called "no fear puppy" by her breeder. I had hoped to produce more precocious pups just like her, and spent considerable amounts of time giving them opportunities to show me what they had in them. So far I've gotten weekly updates on all the pups, hoping to keep in contact with the whole le litter.

As for mauling the bird, my experience is pups don't recognize birds as something to be investigated, let alone pointed, until they've had their mouth on one. So they each got one session to maul the bird. After that, all bird exposure was limited to birds that were able to fly or attached to a harness
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:49 am

Yes Don, the white pup that came from behind to take the lead was one of them. Here he is after just turning one year old. He's the sire to the new pups on the ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn38FWCfK6M

MissK, my pointer pups are born with the instinct to point birds, and will do so at first contact between 6 and 8 weeks old. No need for them to get their mouth on one, other than to see if they will retrieve them, which they all do. However, if I let them catch enough birds as they develop they will learn bad habits. I leave that type of development (good or bad) to their new owners. They are 100% bird dogs and are not multi taskers like your German dogs. And of course, we like what we like;-)
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby marjolein » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:55 am

Is the best or strongest the most talented pup from the litter? No, not necessarily and I think that's the only thing that matters.

I'm not interested in the pick of the litter, I'm interested in a pup from the best litter possible (obviously only if the pup is healthy and sound in character and build properly).
User avatar
marjolein
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:37 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:26 am

My Jack dog was my last pick of the litter pup. I observed the litter 4 times before I chose. We turned the puppies out into the yard on a large rural acreage. Each time Jack would follow his nose leaving the other puppies and humans, exploring boldly on his own using his nose as he went. He was independent and bold always. First in the litter to retrieve and first to point. The read on his constant use and quality of nose, boldness, desire to point, search and retrieve were all accurate and remain to this day. The litter before that where I selected Jack's father as a pick of the litter pup, had two puppies that were as I just described for Jack, one male and one female. The female was purchased by a guy who hired Jon Hann at Perfection Kennel to train her. Jon was also training and campaigning FT strain GSPs for the guy so the pup's owner had an accurate measure of what a highly driven dog was about. He told me repeatedly when he wanted to go hunt wild birds that GWP female was the dog he took.

I have selected 5 pick of the litter pups after observing them multiple times. I look for a bold dog and independent dog and it has always worked out well for me. Each breeding was of two very high quality dogs and multiple puppies in the litters that I was able to keep track of for life made good, but the bold ones with great NA and a strong will are what I like to work with.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:49 am

marjolein wrote:Is the best or strongest the most talented pup from the litter? No, not necessarily and I think that's the only thing that matters.

I'm not interested in the pick of the litter, I'm interested in a pup from the best litter possible (obviously only if the pup is healthy and sound in character and build properly).


How do you determine "most talented" at 7 weeks old?? I can determine traits and watch those traits develop to 7 or 8 weeks old. And even more will be shown at 10-12 weeks. But when I think of talent, I think of those traits being exposed to the environment and tasks. Take two puppies that are almost identical in traits and give one to a person that hunts 10 days a year and the other to a person that hunts 100 days a year, and after one year you will see a real difference in talent. I am assuming you meant potential talent? And that in my mind is what AG's post was about.

AG, I too prefer the pup that is "hunting" the earliest, using his/her nose and brain in unison. Dang, I love puppies!!
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:06 am

So, here we are. As Bumper says before a fight is "let's get ready to rumble". :lol: What I am going to explain here is how I have picked pups most of my breeding life. It won't suit, or even be possible, for many of you which I will explain. The one thing that makes all this irrelevant is if you just have to raise your pups in the house and play kissy face with them from the time they are born. You may as well go back and find a thread on "What do you feed your dog" or something else of similar interest.

This first part is breeding oriented and picking pups for inclusion in to a breeding program. I have always put all my pups into categories at about four weeks old when they start venturing out of the whelping box. Why? Because at this point, they have never been handled, and are totally unfamiliar with their surroundings. They are totally blank slates. Being blank slates, you get to observe EXACTLY what each pup brings to the table. A no other time will they show themselves so clearly. Also, being blank slates, pups need only one time to learn a behavior so I make myself available and sometimes sit there for several hours, at a distance, talking to them. I have to be in their first impressions. Then it happens! One or two of the pups come, boldly strutting up to me. It may be more than one or two, but, they have just told me they are the top of the heap. Then after briefly visiting with me, maybe one takes off to explore by him/her self. That is my dog. The others are still at the top of the heap, but, they like being with me and that tells me those pups will be easier to work with. All these first pups would be good choices for a breeding program simply because they are the strongest. This has not a thing to do with talent. I has to do with picking possible future breed stock. All dogs want to move back to the average for the breed. To keep them strong you have to pick the strongest.

I have to take a break and get another cup of coffee
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:39 am

Why do you, personally, prefer strength over talent? Is it a breed specific thing, since you were breeding versatile terriers? Or do you assume all you dogs will have similar drive to retrieve and use their nose?
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby hicntry » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:27 pm

OK, many may be wondering about the remaining pups. You let them come to you at their own pace and mark them down so you have a sense on how, or with whom to place them because not everyone can train the strongest dogs. They will pretty much come in order of individual confidence levels. This is where the second reason comes into play. Picking a puppy for someone else. Ok, all the pups have been pretty much put in one category or another at four weeks. You now have a pretty good idea what you are looking at and you have another four to six weeks to finetune your ideas about the rest of the litter.
It ha been my experience that the boldest most confident pups are usually going to be the best all around. How did I decide this you might ask? Because I didn't rely on a puppy buyer"s opinion. I watched and worked them myself. You just can't develop a line on someone else's opinion. Most of what separate good dogs out of good litters is the trainers ability.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3567
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breeders knowing their pups

Postby STait » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:44 pm

And when you say strongest, you are talking mentally strongest, right? That's a great place to start!
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Next

Return to Breeding

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests