Outcrossing...How does it work?

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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:51 pm

JT: Thanks for the black history.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby BrewsterAndMutt » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:01 pm

Outcrossing does happen with other dogs breeds from time to time. I know several years back the AKC had allowed outcrossing for Dalmatians to the English Pointer in order to allow new healthy genes into the gene pool. They chose the EP because the Dalmatian is actually very closely related to them but isn't a direct ancestor and at some point in its history also a hunting dog also, I do know one person who hunts with her Dalmatians today still. But I guess the program was successful as the Dalmatians descending from the outcrossing program don't carry the gene that causes urinary stones that they are famous for as breed. So outcrossing to other breeds does happen but at best very very rarely.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby blue04 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:53 pm

JTracyII wrote:Blue, I think the reason that the PP looks much different from the English pointers we are used to seeing, despite being at least 75 % English Pointer in heritage, is due to the difference in the type of English Pointer used in the the creation of the PP and the field trial pointers we see so much of in the US. From what I understand the English Pointer used in the creation of the PP was quite a bit larger and a bit closer working than what the English Pointers have evolved into here in North America through breeding for field trials. The ones here are smaller, faster, and farther ranging built for winning horseback trials.


Excellent point JTracy. Now that you mention it, the physical build of PPs actually reminds me more of some of the DKs I've seen than the American EPs. If I'm not mistaken, DKs have quite a bit of "old school" EP genetics. So your statement makes sense if that's the case. And you're also right that most of the EPs I've seen are almost certainly from Americanized Field Trial blood lines. Smaller, faster, father ranging, etc.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby Densa44 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:41 am

Black PPs. I have been told by a very experienced Breeder that 1 out of 25 pups bred Brown to brown will be black. I have never bred a black one yet, so maybe there is more to it.

I remember when yellow labs were rare and I'd never seen what was called a liver one. Now look at the breed, there were a lot of poor yellows before they got it right.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:04 am

Densa44 wrote:Black PPs. I have been told by a very experienced Breeder that 1 out of 25 pups bred Brown to brown will be black. I have never bred a black one yet, so maybe there is more to it.

I remember when yellow labs were rare and I'd never seen what was called a liver one. Now look at the breed, there were a lot of poor yellows before they got it right.


From what I understand due to dominant and recessive genes, you will never produce a black PP unless one of the parents is black, in which case you will theoretically produce 50% black and 50% brown. The offspring of a Black X Black breeding will go on to only produce 100% black litters even if they are bred to a brown dog due to their genetic makeup for color, which is why it is frowned upon to breed black to black.
Last edited by JTracyII on Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:06 am

BrewsterAndMutt wrote:Outcrossing does happen with other dogs breeds from time to time. I know several years back the AKC had allowed outcrossing for Dalmatians to the English Pointer in order to allow new healthy genes into the gene pool. They chose the EP because the Dalmatian is actually very closely related to them but isn't a direct ancestor and at some point in its history also a hunting dog also, I do know one person who hunts with her Dalmatians today still. But I guess the program was successful as the Dalmatians descending from the outcrossing program don't carry the gene that causes urinary stones that they are famous for as breed. So outcrossing to other breeds does happen but at best very very rarely.


Good to hear that the outcross worked out for the dalmation. I wonder if the person who still hunts their dalmations has dalmations who point?
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:08 am

Densa: That would be the concern, the PP would follow the path of the Labrador when color became more important than the breed its self. There was a time when if you asked a person what kind of dog they had, they'd simply say Labrador. Now it's yellow, chocolate, white, silver and occasionally black, as though were talking of separate breeds.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:13 am

JT.... That is true of the DD/DK and such, dunno about the PP? Probably the same. I'll go out on a limb here and say the black PP's are the result of back breeding to black EP's or ??? They should have stuck with brown EP's and kept it better hidden.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:58 am

orhunter wrote:JT.... That is true of the DD/DK and such, dunno about the PP? Probably the same. I'll go out on a limb here and say the black PP's are the result of back breeding to black EP's or ??? They should have stuck with brown EP's and kept it better hidden.


Black is a color that has been with the PP since it's inception. I don't have time to look up the source right now, but one of the pudel's used early on was a solid black dog. That is where the black came from I believe. If I find the time I'll look it up.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:40 pm

I found the account of the history/origin of the PP that I was referring too. Below is an account of where a black pudel was used:


"The first purposefully bred Pudelpointer throw went to Stiftsörster Walter zu Walsdorf bei Goldberg in Schlesiesen. It was out out of the black PP female “MOLLY” and the distinguished white and brown pointer “TELL.” From this breeding came “CORA vom Walsdorf” who already corresponded to Hegewald’s ideals to a large extent with the hunting background of both original breeds, and the outward appearance of a rough-haired, dry-leaf brown (dürlaub) pointer, which came from the pudel."

Molly was owned by Hegewald himself. There were one or two accidental breedings (which inspired more intentional breedings of the two) that occurred prior to this one between English Pointers and German Hunting Pudel's, but this one between Hegewald's black pudel "Molly" and "Tell", the English Pointer was the first intentional breeding of the Pudelpointer.


Here is the link to the account I am referring too for those so inclined... http://www.pudelpointer.ca/history.html It is a good read.

I think where I first read it was on a German website translated into English so I could read it, which I believe is the same article as the one at the link provided. The result of the breeding was a dry leaf brown dog, but it is pretty apparent where the black genetics came from after reading this passage....The pudel. One can assume other black Pudel's were also used if a dog man so respected in Germany as Hegewald used one.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby gusto » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:28 am

I am all for black PPs as I find the darker PPs tend to have a tighter coat in my experience. No doubt the majority of the black dogs are coming from Mike Pallotta. I like them and coats seem to be more consistent at his kennel.
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