Outcrossing...How does it work?

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Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JONOV » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:15 pm

So my curiosity has been nagging at me. In reading some old GWP/VDD debate threads, as well as the gentleman who was looking to cross a Vizsla to his red setter, I was wondering about "outcrossing" to another breed, and how it ends up on paper, etc...People have commented that there appears to be a fair amount of English Pointer bred into the GWPCA entusiast lines (judging I guess from their white color and coats?)

I assume the obvious reason is to introduce more genetic diversity into a breed. Is it done to enhance other traits?

How are the puppies registered? Is there a genetic purity component when they become purebred dogs again? Does it have to be authorized by a breed club? Does it depend on the registry (Field Dog Stud Book vs AKC vs NAVHDA vs a Breed club for a non AKC type breed?) If one of the Pudelpointer clubs decided that it needed more genetic diversity (and I'm not suggesting that it does, just an example) could the club decide to outcross to a Griff or GWP and register the mix puppies as PP's with the intent of breeding the new genes back into the PP lines?

I'm assuming that the mutts of a GSP and a Lab can't be registered as anything in particular, even if someone wanted a pointer that was more willing to retrieve late season ducks.

Educate me. :D
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby fuzznut » Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:46 pm

People have commented that there appears to be a fair amount of English Pointer bred into the GWPCA entusiast lines (judging I guess from their white color and coats?)


Is that old thing still floating around??????? Be careful who you listen to.... most is nonsense!!

Cross bred puppies are not registered, or should not be registered. Those who choose to cheat the system only think they are getting away with it but are almost always found out eventually.

Those who are upfront with cross breeding at least are honest about what they are doing. But they still can't register them.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:57 pm

Perhaps the correct terminology...Outcrossing is typically done within a breed. This is done when you breed two dogs with no common ancestors a certain number of generations back. What you bring up is crossbreeding; breeding dogs of two different breeds. As stated, known crossbreeding only creates dogs not recognized by a reputable registry...or a new "designer breed".
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JONOV » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:28 am

fuzznut wrote:
People have commented that there appears to be a fair amount of English Pointer bred into the GWPCA entusiast lines (judging I guess from their white color and coats?)


Is that old thing still floating around??????? Be careful who you listen to.... most is nonsense!!

Cross bred puppies are not registered, or should not be registered. Those who choose to cheat the system only think they are getting away with it but are almost always found out eventually.

Those who are upfront with cross breeding at least are honest about what they are doing. But they still can't register them.

Got it...So I've been reading a lot of scurrilous aspersions cast by those who don't like what others are breeding for. :D

I appreciate you clearing it up. I was confused as it didn't seem to pass the smell test to me.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:07 am

SwitchGrass gives the correct explanation. While outcrossing produces excellent results, crossbreeding produces mutts.

Another avenue is back breeding. Going back to foundation breeds that were used to develop the current breed. The PP (in some circles) is the product of back breeding to the EP. I would venture a guess that some lines are over 90% EP? I don't think any of these affected dogs can be found in NAPPA stock?

The GWP/DD could be back bred back to any of the four foundation breeds without terribly upsetting the gene pool and the offspring of such a move would not (should not) be considered mutts. As long as the gene pool remains healthy, doing so would not (might not) accomplish anything. Should a problem arise somewhere down the road, having this option is money in the bank. Other breeds with no established foundation breeds, don't have this luxury.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby blue04 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:25 pm

orhunter wrote: I don't think any of these affected dogs can be found in NAPPA stock?


Not from what I've seen. The NAPPA PPs I've been exposed to are certainly not 90% EP.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:45 pm

blue04 wrote:
orhunter wrote: I don't think any of these affected dogs can be found in NAPPA stock?


Not from what I've seen. The NAPPA PPs I've been exposed to are certainly not 90% EP.


My initial thought too, but then it could be argued that the PP is 75% English Pointer to start with as that is the general balance that the founders shot for if I recall correctly. So, if the PCNA even crossed back once to the EP, which they did openly, then the percentage would be much higher than 75%. Or, is this what you meant or are you saying that they crossed back to the EP several times in successive generations to get to the 90%?
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:58 pm

JT. That is correct. The minimum percentage of EP is 75% without future back breeding of the original stock.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby blue04 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:09 am

JTracyII wrote: if the PCNA even crossed back once to the EP, which they did openly, then the percentage would be much higher than 75%.


I see what you're saying. I actually have no experience with PCNA lines, unless there is very heavy influence in the Cedarwoods lines from the PCNA breedings. The bulk of the dogs I have seen have pedigrees that show several generations of Cedarwoods dogs mixed with:
- Czech bred dogs
- a few other NAPPA breeders' lines (who themselves are largely based on Cedarwoods dogs)
- just a few German bred dogs

The PPs I have personally seen had some behavior tendencies that I would say are consistent with the EPs I've seen (which is a good thing from my perspective), but the body types of the PPs I've seen are pretty far from what I would call a prototypical EP. At 90% or higher EP genetics, I would expect the body types to be much more similar. However, I fully admit that this is just circumstantial observation.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:05 am

Blue: Can't speak about PCNA breeding policy, if they have one but there are people out there who have taken it upon themselves to reintroduce EP. It matters not the source (Cedarwoods) of the dogs involved, what matters is what was done with them. There are some strange looking PP's, have seen a few photos but none in person. Excessive white, washed out overall color, not the rich reddish tan/brown we're used to seeing. Just odd. We haven't mentioned the black dogs yet. That's a head scratcher for sure.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:25 am

Black dogs have always been a part of the PP line if I am not mistaken. It has just been limited as many germans prefer the brown and also if you breed two blacks, which is advised against doing, it will produce puppies that will throw full litters of black dogs no matter what they are bred too due to their genetic make up. What will cause me to scratch my head is if we start to see full white PP's on the AKC field trial circuits some day. I hope not... I think we will all know how that happened...

Blue, I think the reason that the PP looks much different from the English pointers we are used to seeing, despite being at least 75 % English Pointer in heritage, is due to the difference in the type of English Pointer used in the the creation of the PP and the field trial pointers we see so much of in the US. From what I understand the English Pointer used in the creation of the PP was quite a bit larger and a bit closer working than what the English Pointers have evolved into here in North America through breeding for field trials. The ones here are smaller, faster, and farther ranging built for winning horseback trials.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:11 pm

JT... Yes, black is an acceptable color. How many years has the PP been around N. America without black showing up? Suddenly, it's here. Wish a NAPPA person (or other) would explain the origin on this continent. Maybe discuss the presence on the other continent and how it made the swim to the other side. Should be able to trace it to a single litter where it first appeared. Hope it doesn't become the trend like the brown Labradors.
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JONOV » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:14 pm

orhunter wrote:Another avenue is back breeding. Going back to foundation breeds that were used to develop the current breed. The PP (in some circles) is the product of back breeding to the EP. I would venture a guess that some lines are over 90% EP? I don't think any of these affected dogs can be found in NAPPA stock?

The GWP/DD could be back bred back to any of the four foundation breeds without terribly upsetting the gene pool and the offspring of such a move would not (should not) be considered mutts. As long as the gene pool remains healthy, doing so would not (might not) accomplish anything. Should a problem arise somewhere down the road, having this option is money in the bank. Other breeds with no established foundation breeds, don't have this luxury.


Maybe backbreeding is what I was referring to. Who would decide that new blood was needed in the PP gene pool and backbreed (either to a Pointer or a Poodle?)

Taking the GWP, for example, one would assume that there is more diversity in that then in any of the four foundation breeds except maybe the DK/GSP?
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:45 pm

JONOV: We need not use the term "Poodle" as it often refers to the Standard Poodle, a breed to which the PP is not relate....or shouldn't be.

Indeed, there is sufficient diversity in the DD, it should never require back breeding to fix something gone wrong. Close enough attention is paid to the breed that "something gone wrong" could usually be fixed in another way. That is not to say that back breeding is not healthy for the breed. There are worse things that could happen. When the rules circumvent common sense, "Houston, we got a problem."
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Re: Outcrossing...How does it work?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:16 pm

orhunter wrote:JT... Yes, black is an acceptable color. How many years has the PP been around N. America without black showing up? Suddenly, it's here. Wish a NAPPA person (or other) would explain the origin on this continent. Maybe discuss the presence on the other continent and how it made the swim to the other side. Should be able to trace it to a single litter where it first appeared. Hope it doesn't become the trend like the brown Labradors.


It appears to me that the black PP's came about in North America due to some import blood that ended up in Fin Renard Kennels from Pine Ridge Kennels. Any black dog that comes out of Fin Renard Kennels will have the word "Carbon" in its pedigree name to signify its color. For example, Fin Renard Carbon Fairy is a black female that Fin Renard Kennels is now using in its program. From this kennel some black dogs have been sold as puppies into into the U.S. For example, Ripsnorter kennels has a Male named Fin Renard Carbon Felix, UT I (AKA Fin), He is obviously out of Fin Renard Kennels and has produced several litters now. I don't know of many other black PP's being used in breeding programs in the U.S. right now, but there certainly could be a few. As you know, approximately half of Fin's litters will be black when bred to a brown dog. Many of the black PP's you see here are out of him from what I can tell. My PP male is out of Fin. I ended up with a brown dog, although I had a choice of color, as I was first pick and there were black males available. If I were to breed my male to a brown female all of the puppies would be brown. I agree, color should not be the deciding factor when breeding any dog. Function before form in mind wins every time.
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