Studding a DD to a GWP?

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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:27 pm

Like I said, "dunno NAVHDA's stance on your question. My comments were from a legal standpoint, not a NAVHDA standpoint.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JONOV » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:53 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:How do you lab folks feel about silver labs??? Same breed, should they be recognized?? Darn tooting you don't care about the lab mutts down the street, but including silvers in your registry? If someone breeds a national champ to a silver to produce talented silvers, is it something you support?


Do you mean a chocolate lab with a dilute gene giving it that silver color? I simply register it as a chocolate on the AKC registry. If you don't like it, you don't have to breed to it and no one is making you buy the puppies. You might argue it isn't a lab, but if I have papers saying otherwise, your thinking doesn't make it so. I don't understand how the silver lab is different than a black GWP. It won't win at Westminster, but no one else really cares. Its better than breeding a great conformation dog that is known to get cancer at six years old.

I can buy a pointing lab, a field trial lab, a British lab, a Fox red lab, a Silver Lab, and no one argues that they are labs, simply different people breeding for different traits/goals. I have seen some ugly labs, labs with limbs like giraffs and pointy noses, labs that were built more like mastiffs, and everything in between. No one argues they are labs. Some breed for calm house dogs, some breed for high energy field dogs, etc...But there is never any debate as to whether or not they are "true labs."
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:29 am

JONOV wrote:
But there is never any debate as to whether or not they are "true labs."


Not a lab guy and have no clue how the silver came to be, but I have done some reading on the topic and I have seen some argue that the silver gene was introduced through breeding to Weims. It seems settled in your mind, but I don't think it is true that "no one' argues about them being full blood labs.

Here is a thread from this forum that suggest there are those who argue about this issue...
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=9209&hilit=silver+labs+weim
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:45 pm

I think the point made and worth repeating, is if you do not like the dogs someone else is breeding then do not buy one or incorporate them into your breeding program. Both are easily done.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:01 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I think the point made and worth repeating, is if you do not like the dogs someone else is breeding then do not buy one or incorporate them into your breeding program. Both are easily done.


Well said.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:46 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I think the point made and worth repeating, is if you do not like the dogs someone else is breeding then do not buy one or incorporate them into your breeding program. Both are easily done.


Absolutely true. I personally prefer VDD because of the consistency. There are plenty of good GWP breeders, and Averageguy has the dog to prove it. There are also plenty of poor breeders, and separating the chaff is more effort than I wanted.

The point of preventing registration (not just breeding) elsewhere is to keep JGHV and FCI as the predominant registry. I believe I heard that is a problem in other European countries, but don't know the details.

It is my understanding that the reason the separation started was due to the reputation of the GWP as being sharp, among other things. The VDD-GNA wished to keep the breeds separate after many years of improvement in coat and temperament. It may have started as a breed from many breeds, but after 100 years of effort to ensure the success of the breed, I can't say I blame them for wanting to restrict those improvements only to the breeders that support the testing system that created the quality dogs found in the VDD. It was Germany that changed the recommendations from preventing breeding to preventing dual registration.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:59 pm

I just like to be clear as the practice is often defended with a fallacious argument of protecting the DD breed. It has nothing to do with protecting the quality of the DDs within the VDD as any use of them to breed GWPs are never allowed back into the DD registry. It is simply a desire to not share the genetics. Which is the right of the DD breeders, but it has no effect good or bad on DDs and only serves to deny the selective use of DDs in breeding GWPs.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JONOV » Thu Sep 29, 2016 5:40 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:I think the point made and worth repeating, is if you do not like the dogs someone else is breeding then do not buy one or incorporate them into your breeding program. Both are easily done.


Absolutely true. I personally prefer VDD because of the consistency. There are plenty of good GWP breeders, and Averageguy has the dog to prove it. There are also plenty of poor breeders, and separating the chaff is more effort than I wanted.
Good point. Its part of the reason i didn't want a lab.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Sep 30, 2016 7:06 am

AverageGuy wrote:I just like to be clear as the practice is often defended with a fallacious argument of protecting the DD breed. It has nothing to do with protecting the quality of the DDs within the VDD as any use of them to breed GWPs are never allowed back into the DD registry. It is simply a desire to not share the genetics. Which is the right of the DD breeders, but it has no effect good or bad on DDs and only serves to deny the selective use of DDs in breeding GWPs.


Needed to be bumped, because there are two reasons for everything:

1) the "good" reason, and

2) the "real" reason!

The breed club or organization doesn't guarantee who is or isn't a good breeder.

Being a breeder in a great club means very little if one breeds promiscuously, indiscriminately, and to the minimum of the standard.

I'll leave it at that.

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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:59 am

This turned into such a great thread.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby randomnut » Fri Sep 30, 2016 9:46 am

3drahthaars wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:I just like to be clear as the practice is often defended with a fallacious argument of protecting the DD breed. It has nothing to do with protecting the quality of the DDs within the VDD as any use of them to breed GWPs are never allowed back into the DD registry. It is simply a desire to not share the genetics. Which is the right of the DD breeders, but it has no effect good or bad on DDs and only serves to deny the selective use of DDs in breeding GWPs.


Needed to be bumped, because there are two reasons for everything:

1) the "good" reason, and

2) the "real" reason!

The breed club or organization doesn't guarantee who is or isn't a good breeder.

Being a breeder in a great club means very little if one breeds promiscuously, indiscriminately, and to the minimum of the standard.

I'll leave it at that.

3ds


Absolutely! Seems even with our strict breeding standards, many dogs are becoming breed certified when they shouldn't be. I had a female of mine fixed this summer, cause she lacked some of the desire I see in other dogs. I let some folks know, and they questioned why.

My female is a great dog, with excellent hunting abilities. But she does not possess anything I think could further the breed.
Some folks mentioned I could have bred her to a GWP stud, and still made some money.

After going through some tests and watching other dogs and owners work. I'm absolutely convinced test scores don't mean a thing. I've witnessed mediocre dogs get great scores, great dogs get great scores, and dogs I wouldn't hunt behind get great scores.

I've also seen great dogs fail, that I'd be honored to hunt behind.

It seems like many breeders are having way to many pups now, and letting these pups go just about anywhere. Not really worrying about the best for the breed, but the best for themselves.

It's all money.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby ryanr » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:31 pm

Spot on posts Average Guy. Excellent post too Randomnut. I have a 4yr old male DD, only tested in NAVHDA so not VDD breeding approved. He got 112 NA but has not been UT tested yet (2017 is our year!) My dog was only 1.5yrs old, a guy approached me about breeding my dog to his female (to sell pups as GWPs.) She was already in heat. I told the guy my dog was young and also only NA tested, etc. He didn't care. I'll be honest I was in a need for cash at the time and entertained it. The more I thought about it I knew this was something I didn't want to do. My dog is a 70lb powerhouse with awesome prey drive and a very good nose but he's also got some behavioral and cooperation quirks (we've worked hard and he's mostly overcome them) that I just don't think should be passed on regardless of his talent. Deep down I knew I didn't want to be "that type" of breeder and also the more I talked to this guy (and heard about him from people I trusted) it just reinforced what I should do. So I called him and told him I wasn't going to breed my dog and told him why (only the reasons regarding my dog, not his reputation.) He said he was going to sue me because we had a "verbal contract." I laughed, told him we never finalized anything but he was welcome to my mortgage & student loan debt! This summer I finally neutered my dog and while he's still got the drive, I've noticed his cooperation and focus has improved. He's a better dog for it and I have high hopes now for a successful UT.

I'm actually getting another pup next spring too. This one will be a GWP and the main reason is because I've been able to observe anx even work with dozens of pups and dogs from this kennel and these dogs are awesome. Great desire for water work, prey drive, nose along with cooperation. There definitely is no substitute for being able to observe and work with numerous dogs from a kennel BEFORE deciding to purchase.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby randomnut » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:48 pm

Ryanr, I'm sorry for getting slightly OT here, but do you think your dog's improvement came from neutering, or just growing up?
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby ryanr » Sat Oct 01, 2016 12:31 am

randomnut wrote:Ryanr, I'm sorry for getting slightly OT here, but do you think your dog's improvement came from neutering, or just growing up?


It's certainly both but neutering him definitely played a key role because I didn't neuter him until he was 3yrs, 11months old and within a week or so I noticed certain improvements and they have continued. Not drastic changes but enough that it made a noticeable difference to me and even my training partner. He even remarked to me, after Quade's first training 2 weeks after neutering that "man, you should've neutered him 2yrs ago." I had often wondered if he had a higher than average amount of testosterone coursing thru him. He just could not leave females alone like no dog I'd ever seen. He'd even walk around "humping air" if a female was nearby. I think that amount of testosterone also affected how he handled in the field, it seemed like even though he knew what he was supposed to do you sometimes you needed a sledgehammer to get his attention. After he was neutered that all began to change, with the exception of immediately he left the females alone (now it's a quick sniff maybe and he moves on.)
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