Studding a DD to a GWP?

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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:59 pm

Registration is fine for development of the dog. Breeding to a dog that has not been through JGHV system is not.

I believe the new rules regarding registration were originally only intended to prevent breeding. It got revised in Germany to prevent registration. The only way dogs can be "legal" with Germany is if they are labeled breeding restricted with NAVDHA
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby BrewsterAndMutt » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:32 pm

I was nervous opening up this topic because I figured there'd be some fireworks but this has been a really interesting topic, Learning a lot!
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby ryanr » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:21 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Yes, AKC will let you register your VDD dog as an AKC GWP and register pups as AKC. However, if it's known, you will not be allowed to join VDD or register future pups with VDD. The practice is highly frowned upon by those of us who have put the work into making the DD a consistently better versatile hunting dog than the AKC GWP.

You either believe in the VDD testing system and support its development or you don't.


That's one thing and I always supported it (can't argue with the consistent high quality the system has produced) but when an organization starts also telling members they can't test or run their dogs in other venues they've lost me. Did they ever finally back off on that posture? My DD of course is registered in both VDD and NAVHDA but I have no idea how that has now affected my VDD standing as I haven't renewed (since I only tested in NAVHDA my DD isn't VDD breeding eligible anyway and is now neutered too.)

My next pup (Spring 2017) is actually coming out of an excellent NAVHDA registered GWP kennel from a dam & sire I know very well and have seen a good number of their offspring work extensively. I couldn't ask for a better situation in that regard (otherwise I'd likely be getting another DD.) Personally I would never buy a GWP solely registered with AKC, that's for darn sure.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:33 pm

ryanr wrote:
That's one thing and I always supported it (can't argue with the consistent high quality the system has produced) but when an organization starts also telling members they can't test or run their dogs in other venues they've lost me. Did they ever finally back off on that posture?


To my knowledge they have not figured an option for AKC. You can do NAVDHA, but no word yet on what will happen when a puppy buyer tries to register a pup from a "not for breeding" Navdha parent.

Thus far I've not missed out on anything. Between hunting, DockDogs, training days, a local NSTRA knockoff group, and JGHV tests, we haven't had time to feel left out.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:53 am

NAVHDA does not place breeding restrictions on dogs. VDD, yes. I know you know that, for the folks who don't.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:31 pm

https://www.navhda.org/registry/policies-and-procedures

See section : To Establish and Remove NAVDHA Breeding Restriction
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Whiskers » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:28 pm

You can register your DD with NAVHDA as long as when you fill out the NAVHDA registry, you initial the box at the part where it asks you to indicate that the dog is to be listed as breeding restricted. This allows the dog to be registered with NAVHDA and to test in the NAVHDA tests, but the dog cannot be used for breeding in the NAVHDA world. Your DD will also be listed as a GWP for NAVHDA purposes, since NAVHDA does not recognize the DD as such, only that it is a GWP. This is the compromise the VDD-GNA and NAVHDA came up with, and was accepted by the VDD in Germany. I feel NAVHDA bent over backwards to make this compromise to allow more people to play more doggy games with their dogs. Look at the numbers of NAVHDA tests and members out there vs. VDD-GNA. NAVHDA doesn't need the small number of DD's that come over.
My DD is registered with both registries, and has tested in both, (VJP, then NA, then HZP) with no issues from the VDD, since I registered him Breeding Restricted with NAVHDA.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby orhunter » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:20 am

Whiskers: NAVHDA has no control over who breeds what. They are not a breed club. The "breeding restricted" designation is to indicate it is restricted in the breed club, VDD/GNA.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JONOV » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:08 pm

BrewsterAndMutt wrote:Wow, very strict. Interesting though, its not like breeding a male DD to an AKC female is going to contaminate him so he can't breed other DD females afterwards :lol: . If anything its simply introducing fresh genes into the GWP population. Good to know though. For now I'm planning on getting GWP when the time comes, I think the DD would be overkill for my needs as of right now and I like the option of being able to compete in AKC and NAVHDA events.

That's what had my scratching my head. If the DD hopped the fence and mated with the neighbor's Labrador it wouldn't eliminate him from VDD club would it? If it is, as the VDD group claims, a separate breed, then what's the issue? No one is asking them to register their offspring.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

How do you lab folks feel about silver labs??? Same breed, should they be recognized?? Darn tooting you don't care about the lab mutts down the street, but including silvers in your registry? If someone breeds a national champ to a silver to produce talented silvers, is it something you support?
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:10 pm

JONOV wrote:
BrewsterAndMutt wrote:Wow, very strict. Interesting though, its not like breeding a male DD to an AKC female is going to contaminate him so he can't breed other DD females afterwards :lol: . If anything its simply introducing fresh genes into the GWP population. Good to know though. For now I'm planning on getting GWP when the time comes, I think the DD would be overkill for my needs as of right now and I like the option of being able to compete in AKC and NAVHDA events.

That's what had my scratching my head. If the DD hopped the fence and mated with the neighbor's Labrador it wouldn't eliminate him from VDD club would it? If it is, as the VDD group claims, a separate breed, then what's the issue? No one is asking them to register their offspring.


Bottom line is they do not want to share their genetics outside of the VDD, regardless of the fact it can never have any effect (good or bad), on the VDD breeding program. Quite the paradox from a breed developed from 4 already established breeds.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:31 pm

orhunter wrote:Whiskers: NAVHDA has no control over who breeds what. They are not a breed club. The "breeding restricted" designation is to indicate it is restricted in the breed club, VDD/GNA.


Or,
I thought that if you buy a puppy from a NAVHDA registered kennel and that breeder designates that your puppy is not for breeding then, technically, you can still breed the dog, but the resulting puppies cannot be registered with NAVHDA. Is this incorrect?
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby orhunter » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:54 pm

Generally, breeder agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. Anything that restricts the property owners use of their property, isn't valid. It would need to show co-ownership and the breeder would need to retain 51%. Breeder agreements probably aren't registered with NAVHDA as they are private property. Owned by those person's represented in the agreement, both buyer and seller or any other names that appear.

Dunno NAVHDA's stance on your question but it sounds pretty far fetched. The only way it couldn't be challenged is to have every member agree as a condition of being a NAVHDA member, when they join. Couldn't ethically/legally throw new rules at a person just because it suddenly presents an opportunity. Not fair to members.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby ryanr » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:51 pm

orhunter wrote:Generally, breeder agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. Anything that restricts the property owners use of their property, isn't valid. It would need to show co-ownership and the breeder would need to retain 51%. Breeder agreements probably aren't registered with NAVHDA as they are private property. Owned by those person's represented in the agreement, both buyer and seller or any other names that appear.

Dunno NAVHDA's stance on your question but it sounds pretty far fetched. The only way it couldn't be challenged is to have every member agree as a condition of being a NAVHDA member, when they join. Couldn't ethically/legally throw new rules at a person just because it suddenly presents an opportunity. Not fair to members.


I think you might want to check the NAVDHA site and reconsider your answer. JTracy is correct that pups from a NAVHDA breeding restricted parent cannot be registered with NAVHDA so for registration purposes, breeding restrictions are certainly worth the paper they're printed on.
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Re: Studding a DD to a GWP?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:53 pm

orhunter wrote:Generally, breeder agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on. Anything that restricts the property owners use of their property, isn't valid. It would need to show co-ownership and the breeder would need to retain 51%. Breeder agreements probably aren't registered with NAVHDA as they are private property. Owned by those person's represented in the agreement, both buyer and seller or any other names that appear.

Dunno NAVHDA's stance on your question but it sounds pretty far fetched. The only way it couldn't be challenged is to have every member agree as a condition of being a NAVHDA member, when they join. Couldn't ethically/legally throw new rules at a person just because it suddenly presents an opportunity. Not fair to members.


Breeders who own navhda registered kennels can sell dogs with 'limited registration' within NAVHDA, which means that if bred the resulting pups can't be registered with NAVHDA. Personally, I don't mind this as breeders can ensure that only quality dogs get bred. For example, breeders alliances like NAPPA can protect the Breed by stating in the contract the puppy buyer signs that there dog will be sold with limited registration and will be provided full registration only when there dog has met NAPPA's breeding requirements (e.g., studs must prize at UT, pass hip tests, oetc.). Once everything is met the buyers provides proof to breeder of this and the breeder completes the necessary paperwork to change registration status of the dog from limited to 'full registration within the navhda database.
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