What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:33 pm

Here's two future breedings I'm considering. The bottom one is to preserve Branscum's Doc Holiday's blood, the top one is to preserve Kate's blood, which is also Doc's blood. Which on preserves Kate or Doc's blood better?? In the bottom one Kate and Cash delivery are half sister/brother.

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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:51 pm

Quick look.....the bottom one on both counts. I don't like to see a bunch of different names on a pedigree. The same names consistently show strength in the line itself the way I look at it and a much better chance of prepotence across the board.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:16 pm

Doc Holidays sire was Branscum's Nickel, but he's also in the Doc's mother's pedigree twice a little further back so about 10 hits of him total if you include them. Will also breed Tank's sister to Copper when she comes of age. Each generation will have more familiar names as long as the pups are vital!
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:31 pm

So how does all this tie into motherlines if you keep going back to the studs line?
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:59 pm

Well, all studs have a mother I suppose. :lol: The most significant roll for the females is to let me know when the males were not up to par. As long as the girls were dominate, I knew they wouldn't accept a lesser male....as in the German dog and the first cross. Greta wasn't as dominate as Jackie so she made it possible to take the long way around to arrive at the same place. And, having the pups and bringing them along of course. Mom and the aunts were the disciplinarians and the pups all loved dad. That is always a given. :lol: :lol:
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:10 pm

I cannot describe what a mother line is, but not long ago a friend of mine wrote an article for the American Field on mother lines. This followed a very well documented survey on stud dogs and national championship contestants and winners. Anyway, the mother line survey traced all the contestants and winners back to the late 1800s with 70 different mother lines were surveyed. The number 1 bitch was named Nellie. She was number 1 because her mother line was responsible for 23.5% of the contestants over the last 130 some years. The number 2 bitch was Pearstone and her mother line was responsible for 15% of the contestants. After the top 7 females no other female of the 70 traced were responsible for more than 1%. My female Kate through her great grandma Blue Collar Baby traces back to Pearlstone. There other statistics noted, but like I said, I don't understand the way it all works out. I don't think there's an online record of the article so I can't post it here. Doubt it would Be of interest to you Don anyway, being about pointers. I don't know the statistics on the father line article, but it traces back the same way. It was quite a pile of work to produce the articles and the library of pedigrees he has is huge.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:20 pm

This is an extended amount of information about the pointer family tree. Hell of a lot of work, especially when you consider he typed it all on his smart phone.

http://www.thefieldtrialer.com/forum/vi ... amily+tree
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:22 am

Interesting Steve. I am going to have to think about the importance because every bitch that had a pup constitutes a motherline apparently. If they were not competed, then the motherline doesn't count for much, but, in no way means they were not great dogs. It is very similar to how show people keep track of every winner produced by a stud or a bitch through it's life....may be higher quality dogs out there, but the owners aren't into showing dogs. Seems to be kind of a superficial scoring system. Kind of like the German dog I used....had all the titles but wasn't half the dog in the dog world.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:17 am

The Difference is this is a pointer horseback performance statistic. Setters dominated the horseback field trials for probably the first 40-50 years in this country. None of those are cosidered in this survey. Nor are all the pointers in competition games other than AF horseback All Age trials. I have no idea what it means for individual breedings. It's a huge pile of statistics comprised by a lot of research by one man. A man I have a lot of respect for.

Titles don't mean much to me, more the circumstances surrounding how the titles were won. The type of dog that I like fits the type of dog that was used in this survey. My female Kate has no titles, but it worries me that I may never have a bitch as nice as her again, and she's almost 5. I have a daughter and granddaughter and the jury's still out on her granddaughter, but her daughter does not meet my standards perfectly. She was the pick of the litter and a very nice bitch, but finding the right male to recreate Kate is my challenge. That's why I'm looking forward to the two breedings above. Just don't know which one to do first;-)
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby ryanr » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:50 pm

hicntry wrote:
STait wrote:Why would you have not been able to breed as tight as you did if you paid more attention to females?


I just don't think nature puts much importance on the females throughout the animal world. Survival of the fittest is where it is at. Look at this from natures perspective. How many motherline elk are duking it out to see which of them get to breed to all the so so males. There is no motherline anything setting the standard of the survival of the fittest. From every species and every part of the world, it is the dominate bulls, dominate lions etc, that have become themselves the selected ones. On the other hand, does anything really make any of the females the chosen ones. No, they are females, no one cow particularly much different than the next. They all stand around like a herd waiting to be bred by the dominate bull. I just don't think they are that important when it comes down to the survival of the fittest.


Wolves, the alpha pair and sometimes its an alpha female that leads the pack. Hyena packs are ruled by females.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:32 pm

"Wolves, the alpha pair and sometimes its an alpha female that leads the pack. Hyena packs are ruled by females."
Wolves ...SOMETIMES it is an alpha female. The rare exception because she won't breed to a lesser male....pack can't exist unless she is displaced by a dominate male. I have had females that had the physical attribute of a male....too much testosterone....if they aren't bred in the first season, they don't ever breed. In the bull dog world, masculine females win shows....but they can't get them to breed.....in the wild, the pack ceases to exist. Hyena's LOL congrats Ryan, you have come up with an anomaly.....nothing even close to the norm.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:15 am

I think your own Chauvanism is getting in your way here...

http://www.inhabitots.com/5-strong-matr ... -intended/

I'm still failing to see how someone who sees no value to the females is able to discuss a motherline. I'm pretty sure motherlines are to put the emphasis on the female.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:50 am

" I'm pretty sure motherlines are to put the emphasis on the female."

I know....crazy isn't it. :wink:
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby cjm » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:32 pm

i don't think that comparing a breeding program to situations in the wild (where males fight to breed with multiple females) is a useful comparison. in the wild, every female can become pregnant, so her genes don't matter much in terms of whether or not she will reproduce - in other words, it benefits the species to simply produce more young. on the male side, there are many more possibilities and it doesn't matter to the species that every male gets to pass on his genes - in other words, there is a benefit to the species to have the strongest male impregnate multiple females. of course this is simplified, but it highlights the flaw in the comparison.

the only way this comparison works is if you select your best males, breed them to every available female, and keep the best pups - selection of females wouldn't matter because you would be selecting them all.

breeding dogs is not typically like this - not every female will be selected to pass on genes. therefore, it makes sense to pick females with the best traits. as others have mentioned, females contribute 50% of dna, 100% of mitochondrial dna, and epi-genetic information to offspring (think about epi-genetics as which genes get turned on or off). i'm not sure how much mitochondrial dna or epi-genetic information would impact hunting, but nonetheless, i think there is a pretty strong argument to be made that if one side matters most, it is probably the female.
Last edited by cjm on Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby jlw034 » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:38 pm

Makes me think of this meme...

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