What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:34 pm

Why does sexual dimorphism exist in so many species?

The best males don't go around raping all the females. The females CHOOSE.

Why do bull elk bugle and run off the younger Bulls? If strength was all that mattered, then the females would ALL choose the biggest bull. And most do, but a certain percentage choose a satellite bull. The strongest is also sometimes stupid enough to get killed in a fight. Cow elk (and many other species) sometimes choose a satellite bull. The end goal is to produce as many genetic copies that SURVIVE to also make genetic copies.

Females carry the option of choice, and they have the advantage of control over nature as well as nurture.

Does it matter in dog lines? That I don't know. But genetics and natural selection is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:02 pm

Here is a possibility. The X factor as it is known in breeding horses. The X gene for heart size is only past on by the mare. Breeders of horses, place the value of the mares as most important because of the X factor. Lots of money changes hands in breeding winning horses. In nature, breeding is as scientific as breeding horses within natures obvious restrictions. Let's say there is an X factor gene in elk. Stands to reason, the biggest, strongest with the most endurance are most probably the ones with the largest hearts. That bull is the "keeper" of a very special gene handed down from one of the cows. Nature then makes him the most likely candidate and he is the sole donor of spreading his DNA to all the cows in his herd. Why might that be. Because it offers the best chance of covering any cow there that has the single X Factor gene to insure the survival of that one gene. Still in my mind, the male is the most important as long as he wasn't picked because he won FT's. finding planted birds. It would have to be based more on physical size and endurance first, other attributes would be secondary. Then that dog would have to be put over as many bitches as possible. Then again, maybe the X factor has nothing to do with breeding dogs because dogs are seldom bred for what nature may deem viable. Something to think about.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:19 pm

If size and endurance are all that matter, and not intelligence, trainability, mothering ability, temperament, talent, nose and tracking ability... Then it stands to reason why you would only care about masculine attributes. Not everyone feels the same as you.

In a given individual both parents provide equal genetic material, and the mother provides mitochondrial DNA and her mothering ability has profound effects on how offspring handle stress as adults. Studs should only be held to a higher standard if they are producing more offspring than a female could produce in her lifetime.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:24 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:Why does sexual dimorphism exist in so many species?

The best males don't go around raping all the females. The females CHOOSE.

Why do bull elk bugle and run off the younger Bulls? If strength was all that mattered, then the females would ALL choose the biggest bull. And most do, but a certain percentage choose a satellite bull. The strongest is also sometimes stupid enough to get killed in a fight. Cow elk (and many other species) sometimes choose a satellite bull. The end goal is to produce as many genetic copies that SURVIVE to also make genetic copies.

Females carry the option of choice, and they have the advantage of control over nature as well as nurture.

Does it matter in dog lines? That I don't know. But genetics and natural selection is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.


Top bulls don't spend their time running off the immature bulls because the mature females won't let them breed anyway. Mature females all want the top bull in any species. Females aren't given the option of "do they want to breed or not". They want to and they want the last bull standing. Natural selection is indeed easy to understand.

It is common knowledge that I spent years breeding my dogs in family units. One male per yard with multiple females. I gave people the breeding rights at first. Every person to the last one that wanted to breed a female had to bring them back to me. Why is that? Because they wouldn't breed to lesser males and the people couldn't find a male that could dominate my bitches. Breeding weak males is why people started having to muzzle bitches so they would't hurt their inferior males. Another interesting fact is I could move the females from yard to yard with other females and never have a problem.....as long as there was just one male. Try and introduce a second male into a yard, not only did the males try to kill each other, but, there was open warfare between the females also. Why? Because, they now had a choice. That problem is eliminated when there is only one top dog....or bull.
Last edited by hicntry on Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:25 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:If size and endurance are all that matter, and not intelligence, trainability, mothering ability, temperament, talent, nose and tracking ability... Then it stands to reason why you would only care about masculine attributes. Not everyone feels the same as you.

In a given individual both parents provide equal genetic material, and the mother provides mitochondrial DNA and her mothering ability has profound effects on how offspring handle stress as adults. Studs should only be held to a higher standard if they are producing more offspring than a female could produce in her lifetime.


MissK, where in the world are you getting your material??? LOL
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:11 pm

hicntry wrote:
MissK, where in the world are you getting your material??? LOL


Numerous college courses on animal behavior. One of my favorite professors was an ethologist. I know your appreciation for science is nil, but facts and opinions are not one and the same.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:19 pm

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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:07 pm

From the 1930's no less. I doubt anyone could even follow a motherline today much less explain it's use in today's breeding practices.

http://www.esmondrott.com/breeding_motherlines.htm
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:26 pm

I tattooed a litter last week and motherlines were part of the conversation. Just because it doesn't matter in your current circle, or your program, doesn't mean you are the only one who understands the concept.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:59 pm

I have admitted it makes no sense to me....which is why I put the thread up......so someone could shed some light on it. That's something you can't do. LOL If you can...do it or quit pretending you know everything. Two years ago you were asking for help on merely picking your first working dog now you know everything from advanced training, to how healing sticks are used to beat dogs into submission and the list goes on. If you would like to continue this charade, I will post one of my pedigrees and you can have center stage and explain the motherlines to my pedigree. Most likely the easiest pedigree to do it with. Now you have the opportunity to clear something up that even veteran breeders don't fully understand. How about it? Tucco's pedigree. This is the last 6 generations of 13

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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:49 pm

I'm not arguing your point about motherlines. I don't understand why it's important in dogs either, as the only sex-linked gene I'm aware of is hemophilia B.

The only points I disagreed with was that females don't contribute anything of importance, some idiotically incorrect statements on herd behavior and breeding, and that motherlines haven't been important to some breeders since the 30s. Motherlines do come up in conversations frequently.

As to your pedigree- I'm seeing a whole lot of Titan, but that's not following a motherline as males only get one X chromosome. I am intrigued, and if we can get back on topic without disagreeing on basic animal behavior, maybe I can learn something.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:10 am

How many generations did you use Winchester?? I see him in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Elisabeth is in there as his mother, did you use her in other parts of this pedigree? I see a fair amount of grandfather to granddaughter, I'm going to try the opposite soon.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:24 am

On the above pedigree
Steve, in the posted pedigree Winchester and Reminton are litter mate brothers. Higgins is Remintons son(Winchester's nephew). Titan, Hunter, Maddison, Clemintine Divine Moore, were all sons and daughters of Winchester. Annie-o was daughter to Elizabeth and Higgins.

This pedigree is a bit clearerAlso, got a couple of interesting tales concerning the inclusion of the DDR dogs into my line but it will have to wait until I finish making my chicken noodle soup.LOL
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:02 pm

OK, in the first ped posted, At the very top is HC OH Griffin. He was the DDR dog I got to freshen up the lines....all bitework tiles going way back and heavily line bred. I had about 18 bitches on the yard at that time so I did have a good selection. Also had about 2k in Griffin for this project. I waited and waited for him to come of age so to speak and put my 1st choice female in with him. She just flat kicked his a$$ and he wouldn't go near her again. After the same thing happened with several more females, my options were running out. No matter how many titles these dogs had for bite work that in today's world justified breeding this line, nature itself would have culled them. I needed the new genetics and finally resorted to putting HC Palin in with Griff. She weighed about 47 pounds and Griff was 72 pounds. She fought him tooth and nail but he took his licks and bred her. Out of that breeding came Cash. Cash was a magnificent male. He was big, robust, etc, and I had just the bitch for him, Jackie. I couldn't help but love him because he had it all. Time came and I put Cash and Jackie together. LOL What a beating the big guy took....but he wasn't detered. I had to take him out of the yard before she killed him.....and he was bigger than her. Now I am stuck with two males that aren't enough dog because of using a dog with titles up the wazzoo. I put Cash across HC Greta and got Tucco. At 5 1/2 weeks, I could see what Tucco brought to the table. As much as I liked Cash, I gave both Cash and Griff away. Gave Jackie away with Cash as long as they had her fixed. Tucco has bred a number of my bitches that the owners couldn't get other males to breed. Every one of those bitches straight up attacked Tucco when he went to mount them. LOL
Every one of them was grabbed by the face and thrown on the ground. While holding them down, he whispered in their ear. When he let them go, they assumed the submissive stance and proceeded to lick him in the mouth, swung around and backed up to him. Bitches want dominate males, not title holders. If any of you have males that can't get the job done....tradem for the bitch. Lionesses don't chase down the loser, elk don't do it....no animals want the loser. That is how simple survival of the fittest is in nature.

A short story from my life in redneck bars. Place is just full of bad a$$ rednecks. A little hottie walks in wearing a short skirt, flitting her butt around. The lesser dogs move to a neutral spot. The big dogs start eyeballing each other and vying for her attention. Fight breaks out....one loses and one wins. Trust me, that little hottie will never walk out the door with the looser. Just not a lot of difference between dogs and people. LOL Love that story.
Last edited by hicntry on Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:47 pm

Yeah, I've witnessed the same story as your last one, but we were young then.

You really do have some gnarly females and I can see why the strong male was so important in your breeding program. In my world with pointers, I wouldn't tolerate that behavior from a female, but I fully understand why you were happily keeping it. Last time my female Lucy came into heat, by the time she was getting close to being receptive, I was amazed at how she was flirting with my young male Copper. She was in love;-) When my other younger male came around her to get a sniff she'd just sit down, but when Copper came by, fireworks went off, and she was shamelessly flaunting everything she had to offer. Cracked me up. I didn't let them hook up because I want to hunt with her next month.

Interesting to view your pedigrees. Takes some time to interpret all the different family relations.
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