What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

Moderator: Moderator Pack

What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:28 am

I never put much stock in it. Nature itself doesn't put much stock in it. If I had paid attention to the females, I would have never been able to breed as tight as I have.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:15 pm

Why would you have not been able to breed as tight as you did if you paid more attention to females?
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:24 pm

STait wrote:Why would you have not been able to breed as tight as you did if you paid more attention to females?


I just don't think nature puts much importance on the females throughout the animal world. Survival of the fittest is where it is at. Look at this from natures perspective. How many motherline elk are duking it out to see which of them get to breed to all the so so males. There is no motherline anything setting the standard of the survival of the fittest. From every species and every part of the world, it is the dominate bulls, dominate lions etc, that have become themselves the selected ones. On the other hand, does anything really make any of the females the chosen ones. No, they are females, no one cow particularly much different than the next. They all stand around like a herd waiting to be bred by the dominate bull. I just don't think they are that important when it comes down to the survival of the fittest.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:43 pm

When one stops to think about it logically, a sound herd is comprised of the genetics of one bull and a group of pretty much the same cows. The cows contribution is basically a numbers game....multiple calves from the same bull. Then people jump into the mix and some how, the females become the dominate playing piece....probably for no more reasoning than they had a female they favored once.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Females donate more genetic material to an individual than the male (50% cellular DNA AND 100% mitochondrial DNA).

Males can breed more females spreading genetics widely within a population, but that male got more than half his genetic stamp from mom, and CANNOT share mitochondrial DNA.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:41 pm

Odd that you're comparing elk to dogs. Wolves might be a better comparison. In the pointer world there are certain mother lines that have been traced back, where one line has produced a large percentage of American Field national championship contestants starting back in the 1870's or somewhere near then. I will try and find the stats.

Most breeders believe the female has more influence on the puppies than the sire, 50% genetics, along with environmental impact. I believe it was horse breeders that found the X factor (mitochondrial DNA) to have a greater impact genetically, but I don't understand all that.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:50 pm

Speaking of elk, the herd is more of a matriarchal society. The Bulls just come into the heard in September to spread their seed and being nature as it is, the cows are attracted to the most vital Bulls. Even during the rut the lead cows determine the direction the herd travels. The Bulls are total idiots following their nose. But, I digress, this speaks of behavior rather than genetics.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:51 pm

OK MissK. Are you saying nature is wrong having the males of virtually every species as the dominate player determining the strength of the herd? Let's say that one dominate elk is there to breed the whole herd of females....females that nothing at all separates them from one another....they are just cows. One thing they are going to have in common is that they are all going to carry the DNA from the dominate bull to carry on the line. When you picked your foundation stock, did you put most weight on the motherline or the sire's side. Has anyone ever witnessed a motherline fighting for the right to pass on their genes? No. They are just the keepers of the future, a vessel so to speak.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:03 pm

STait wrote:Odd that you're comparing elk to dogs. Wolves might be a better comparison. In the pointer world there are certain mother lines that have been traced back, where one line has produced a large percentage of American Field national championship contestants starting back in the 1870's or somewhere near then. I will try and find the stats.

Most breeders believe the female has more influence on the puppies than the sire, 50% genetics, along with environmental impact. I believe it was horse breeders that found the X factor (mitochondrial DNA) to have a greater impact genetically, but I don't understand all that.


I am not comparing elk to dogs. I am comparing what we see in nature versus what people have come to believe that just doesn't fit. We can compare lions, or maybe elephants or whatever one wants to look at. The strength of any group of animals still comes from the males.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:43 pm

I guess I don't really understand what you mean by strength?
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:31 am

There can be no argument of the fact the female contributes 50% of the genetics and then has early development influence the sire does not have.

I look at well bred Vdogs vs hounds. Houndsmen for far too long have put too much emphasis on the stud dog, breeding to unproven females. The consistency of their pups is poor as a result. Their litters have a few good dogs but using that approach there would be few breeders awards if such a thing existed in the hound world. When the female side of a breeding is given the critical consideration it deserves, the percentage of pups that make good goes way up is my observation.

Regarding Elk, the cows in the herd are not at all the same. There is a herd hierarchy that determines everything they do. Further just because most all of the cows may breed that does not at all ensure all of their calves survive their first year. It is in the evasion of predators and the securing of the most fertile feeding areas in the winter that the cows' individual superior or inferior skills impact the ongoing genetics by allowing their calves to survive and breed the next generation.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1435
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:25 am

Even with wolves, I'd imagine their pups survival rate would be in line with all other species where 75% of the young don't survive to a year of age.

I would ask this question, doesn't a female also have prepotency through line breeding. I've heard "you could breed that dog to a fence post and come out with great bird dogs". Same is true for some females, in the horse world they call them "blu hens", which is now a phrase they use on dogs. Blu hens can be bred to a number of mediocre males and produce winners. Then you have the phrase "nick" which is a great match between male and female. A current one in the pointer world would be Whippoorwill Wild Again and Sparkles. Three litters produced an extraordinary number of champions and the reigning National Champion.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:08 am

Don't get hung up on elk. Lets take lions, a predator. The dominate male spreads his seed through to all the lionesses. It is the way it works. Aside from that, all people can do at best, is try to defend motherlines. How many of you know enough to even use the motherline theory to develop anything into a line? AG brought up hounds and the poor quality of dogs being produced. He put it at the doorstep of putting to much stock in the males. From where I sat around the campfire, they all loved their gyps. The same houndsmen always had the best hounds because they knew how to bring a dog along while the wanna bees pretended to be dog men.

Now here is the catch, I put all the weight on what I see with the males and I expect mostly of the females is to be an offspring of the right males. Their only claim to fame is who their sire was. Past that, I doubt seriously that I could have taken it as far as I have. But, I may be wrong. I have pedigree after pedigree
where one whole column from top to bottom is Winchester and the balance of the pedigree is a mixture of his sons and daughters. The sons to carry Winchesters torch to the afterlife, and the daughters, well, only princesses in name because of there birthright, but, the sons still claimed the throne. :lol: :lol:
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby STait » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:14 am

So, as long as the male was sound, you didn't give two hoots about the females? I know you're not saying that! I have to totally agree with you about the males. I am always thinking about "how can I capitalize on such and such male"? But, at the same time thinking which female will match best with him and why. My thoughts of mother lines are distant.
STait
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed May 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: What is a "motherline" What is the importance if any

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:19 am

" Then you have the phrase "nick" which is a great match between male and female. "

Yes the term nick. In lieu of all the bad breeding choices people make, when they finally make a good one they had to give it a special name...thus.... we now know those rare good choices as a "nick". The bad choices may have well come from trying to prove motherlines are alive and well. :lol: :lol: So, what exactly is a motherline? Anyone?? I don't have a clue myself....so I don't figure it is of much importance.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Next

Return to Breeding

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests