I was bored and run across these videos.

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I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:32 pm

Mind you, I am just putting them up to show you how the pups are brought up that you see in the videos of them going up and down stairs never even having a collar on or using treats. I went out and saw this litter roughly every 3rd day for about 10 minutes. I wasn't even home the rest of the time. This is just FYI and not a discussion, debate, or anything else.

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Pups at 27 days (about 4 weeks). Never been picked up. They don't even know I am there.

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Pups at 40 days (almost 6 weeks), still never been picked up.

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Pups at 8 weeks waiting for me to come in the yard. Some may have been picked up.

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Pups in new yard away from mom and dad and ready to be introduced to the house for the first time at about 9 weeks. Time line isn't set in stone.

Consider the extensive socialization and/or lack of handling. Think of WHY the pups may be so willing to work with me. It is all pretty much shown in the videos.
Last edited by hicntry on Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:10 pm

Now, give the videos above a lot of thought. Very little handling,yet, a desire to be with me and do things with me. Following me into the house, which was totally new to them. Following me up the stairs the first time in the house. All on their own. Now, look at this picture which is the environment most pups live in. Do you think the pups pictured below can adjust even close to the pups in the video? Think about why socialization is a necessity for dogs today and it wasn't years ago.

Image
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:52 pm

Because dogs today get things like vet care, are expected not to eat the neighbors chihuahua or cat, and travel in cars, airplanes and more.

How many of your dogs would have stood on a table and let you hold their lips back for 3-5 minutes while you took photos to email the dentist? We now have an appointment set up for Monday to do a root canal pre-evaluation. I'm sure you will scoff about that, and that's ok. Different strokes for different folks.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:56 pm

Anyone want to tell Missk what the point was to the videos since she missed it completely as usual?
Last edited by hicntry on Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:57 pm

xxx
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby STait » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:56 am

Natural love for man without fear, bred into them, hence the use of the word "natural"? Natural boldness?? Am I close?
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:58 am

STait wrote:Natural love for man without fear, Bred Into Them, hence the use of the word "natural"? Natural boldness?? Am I close?


Yes, and a rare thing. Therefore not recommended for most dogs. Many dogs raised this way are more feral than not, have handled a few in my day that came off the street and ended up in rescue. Can honestly say euthanasia would have been better for most.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby STait » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:36 am

Not rare in my pointers. If they weren't bold and born with a love for man I wouldn't own them. But, my vet actually recommends my dogs to her hunting clients. Also, I heard from one of the employees that the one vet tech said "if I was a dog, I would want to be one of his"! Talking about me of course;-)
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:49 am

STait wrote:Not rare in my pointers. If they weren't bold and born with a love for man I wouldn't own them. But, my vet actually recommends my dogs to her hunting clients. Also, I heard from one of the employees that the one vet tech said "if I was a dog, I would want to be one of his"! Talking about me of course;-)


So you also leave your pups in the yard with no exposure to human handling until after they are 12 weeks old? How many of those pups will allow grass awns to be removed from the ear or removal of a bone/stick stuck on the roof of the mouth without chemical restraint?

Most dogs not exposed to restraint and handling at a young age have zero tolerance for it, or worse an outright fear - leading to aggression. It can absolutely be a bred in trait, but since doing more than shooting the dog and replacing it is a new thing, most dogs do not exo it this level of cooperation. Ask any JGHV judge how important early handling is.What they deal with on test day is my daily routine. If you don't care if your dog will accept medical care, then no big deal.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:00 am

When socialization and training come together...

https://www.facebook.com/yelena.pawela/ ... 6171402681
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:13 am

Here's a blog I like very much. I suspect hicntry has most of his success with bold confident pups (and there's no question that's true) because of the breeding and genetics, NOT the lack of handling he touts as key.

And yes, over handling is possible too. You can create a dog afraid to think for themselves. Balance is key. Genetics, exposure, handling, and yes, letting dogs be dogs.

http://www.avidog.com/raising-puppies-t ... dent-dogs/
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby STait » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:51 am

No, I socialize my pups once they open there eyes and ears. But, mine are wild puppies as I don't restrain them just for future preparation of being restrained. If they have an awn seed in their ears they will stand for extracting. They will hold still with a bit of restraint, no need to teach them that. Especially considering how rare it is for them to see a vet. My dogs don't have the common problems you see with other breeds!
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:51 pm

STait wrote:No, I socialize my pups once they open there eyes and ears. But, mine are wild puppies as I don't restrain them just for future preparation of being restrained. If they have an awn seed in their ears they will stand for extracting. They will hold still with a bit of restraint, no need to teach them that. Especially considering how rare it is for them to see a vet. My dogs don't have the common problems you see with other breeds!


Good Breeding will do that!! Basic handling (holding puppies until they relax) when very young adds a little more.
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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:42 pm

Hey guys, today is my busy day. I will clear this up manana........ hopefully. I will make it clear to most outside of MissK. In the meantime, you can ignore everything she has said because she just doesn't know how much she really doesn't know. Hopefully you are smart enough to not let her lead you down the primrose path.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

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Re: I was bored and run across these videos.

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:59 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:Because dogs today get things like vet care, are expected not to eat the neighbors chihuahua or cat, and travel in cars, airplanes and more.

How many of your dogs would have stood on a table and let you hold their lips back for 3-5 minutes while you took photos to email the dentist? We now have an appointment set up for Monday to do a root canal pre-evaluation. I'm sure you will scoff about that, and that's ok. Different strokes for different folks.


Let's start here, even though it has nothing to do with anything. Yes, after about 10 years of dealing with vets, I quit taking my dogs to them. Surprise, surprise, they started living 25% to 30% longer with zero vet care. You have to understand, folks with one or two dog haven't got enough dogs for it to be noticeable.....with 25 to 30 dogs it was really apparent. I also only gave pups coming up the first three shots and never gave them another in their life time. Vaccinations are killing dogs faster than what they are suppose to prevent will. Besides, after the first three shots, the pups are pretty much covered for most things through their lifetime. Look at tetnus shots people get.....good for at least ten years right. Not enough difference with dogs to justify giving them shots yearly just because a vet lays a guilt trip on you.



OK, on with the point of the videos. MissK and most of the rest of you, were born into an era with crate training. You simply have no idea about about the whys and where fores of socialization. MissK keeps asking if my pups will do any of the things a socialized dog will do. After all the pictures of my pups, raised without me handling them, following me into a house and climbing a stairway ON THEIR OWN, one would think she would realize there is just so much she doesn't know. MissK puts my dogs behavior off as rare and most dogs raised this way would be ferral. LOL She is so off base it isn't funny. The simple fact is, pups raised the way you see in the videos can and will do everything she implies they won't....and they will do it better than any dog she considers socialized, hands down. Why, because they have been free in huge yards and and encountered so many things that new things are just par for the course.

Let's put this in perspective so you can better understand it. Lets use your kids to demonstrate this. Picture this. Your kids have just learned to walk and you just can't/don't want to watch them 24/7. You have a coat closet in the living room so you clean it out and have a security door put on so your kid can see out. Oh my god, you now realize how great it is without the responsibilities and how safe the kid is now....so.....you leave him in there except for a bit when you watch TV....and he is sitting next to you.He reaches an age where you have to teach him something so you opt for home schooling because it gives you better control. Now you have another kid so it is time to put the, now 10 year old, into public school. Do any of you, by any stretch of the imagination, think you would be able to send that kid off without a long period of socialization. OK, can any of you even begin to think that, no matter how much socialization the kid gets, that he will ever be as stable as the kid that had all the freedom. If you do think he will be normal, you are living in a dream world.

OK, Now, when you see how my dogs are.....that is pretty much the way all dogs used to be to varying degrees. Dogs were born under the porch, in the barn, in the flower bed behind a bush. People went out to see them, watch them, talk to them. Pups learn from the parents, they see mom come over to you for attention, they come over. Pretty soon they look and act like the ones you see in all these videos I put up. The group thing is important because the weaker pups take the stronger pups lead. The weaker pups in those videos are the last ones to fall in line. Why is that. Because they are not strong enough to take the lead, but, they don't want to be the last one standing by himself either. They gain confidence with the group, not by a person trying to force them into enjoying your company...... because he never will unless he is given time in the group to develop that confidence. The long and the short of it, dogs need the freedom to develop just like the kid in the closet. The need for socialization is a fairly recent thing. The need for it became a necessity as the use of kennels and crates became more and more popular. Now, almost all dogs today, need a varying degree of socialization because people just don't know anything else. Do most breeders drop the ball before you even get the pup. Of course they do, but, what incentive do they have to provide an environment for their pups to thrive in since most people are going to take them home and "crate train them anyway. Socialization is needed because the ball was dropped by people that think they know everything about raising dogs.

Now, go back and take a good look at the pups staring out of the kennel. Don't y'all think it would make a dandy picture for the HSUS to flash across your TV screen to pull on your heart stings?
Last edited by hicntry on Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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