PENN Hip?

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby bhennessy » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:00 pm

SwitchGrassWPG wrote:No comparison between the results from PennHip and OFA. Both are evaluating the hip joint, but in different manners. The PennHip method does use the OFA image as the start of their method. Lots of information on their respective websites.

I recently had a dog evaluated and OFA was evaluated as good, but her PennHip measurements were very high. In Griffons, the percentile scale is meaningless becuase there are a number of Griffon/Fousek crosses included in the data. Up to this point, PennHip has been resistant to separate these dogs out...

Personally, I won't use a dog if their PennHip measurement is much over .35, regardless of OFA rating. BTW...I recently had OFA, PennHip and OFA elbows done on a dog for about $400.

Jay


As consumer, this is what I expect for my serious initial and reoccurring investments of time and money in a well bred hunting dog. No one deserves a dog that can't hunt when it should be in its prime, especially when this is due to a condition that is reasonably easy to identify and breed around. I'm sure there is additional value to an exercise based test as was mentioned above, but in my opinion (again, as a consumer), I will always trust established objective science (when reasonably available) and those who adhere to it first and foremost. Beyond that, other factors become relevant, including a breeder's philosophy, expertise and wisdom.

My understanding is that a puppy from parents who both have scores less than 30ish on the PennHip has a negligible chance of developing dysplasia. Other than if you are only breeding dogs for your own use, why trust a subjective test over an objective test that is based on well established science?
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:54 pm

" especially when this is due to a condition that is reasonably easy to identify and breed around"

I am sorry, lol, go with science then. Seems to me I have read that dysplastic dogs can throw pups with no sign of dysplasia. Dogs with no sign of dysplasia can throw dogs with dysplaysia. If you have more faith in that kind of science over field testing....I would run with it.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby STait » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:49 pm

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby ANick » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:06 am

hicntry wrote:" especially when this is due to a condition that is reasonably easy to identify and breed around"

I am sorry, lol, go with science then. Seems to me I have read that dysplastic dogs can throw pups with no sign of dysplasia. Dogs with no sign of dysplasia can throw dogs with dysplaysia. If you have more faith in that kind of science over field testing....I would run with it.


The stealth qualities of dysplasia in breeding is not news. As Hicntry says, even his dogs without a sign of dysplasia could throw dysplastic pups. If someone is blessed with a talent or a Ouija board tuned to determine the quality of their dogs' hips, it *could* be 'good enough'. Maybe. Determining by observation only is going to require a long time period to determine if a dog has anything less than a dire condition. In any event, the only thing a prospective owner has to go on when looking at a pup from that breeder is the breeder's say-so. That say-so may be accurate or not.

What I have seen digging through DL records is that the more consistent the prior generations are on really good hips, the less you see of lower classified hips in recent pairings. Going back through 8 generations includes a lot of dogs as well a lot of differences in the environments of those dogs, averaging out the 'nurture' side of the 'Nature / Nurture' balance, aka 'Heredity / Environment'. That tells me that the science side works, independently of any one individual. There are no guarantees with heredity, but my odds are better with testing than without.

For the prospective puppy owner, my recommendation is to ask the breeder if they want you to test the pup's hips when it comes of age... if they haven't already mentioned it. If they defer, find another breeder. If they don't want to know how the pups turn out, they are just looking for a check.

IMeversoHO

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:50 am

HD went from a genetic disorder, to a genetic and nutritional disorder, to a polygenic disorder that would take years to sort out. The very latest thing I read is that it is genetic, nutritional, and believe it or not, finally, they are recognizing it is largely environmental. Actually, in my opinion, it is mostly environmental. Not being as straight forward as I tend to be, they put much of the blame on slick floors, but, I don't believe they mentioned the whelping conditions. It should be no big surpise to anyone that, yes, a dog with, or without HD can and will produce dogs with or without HD. The truth of the matter is that it isn't the dog that is responsible for producing pups with the condition, it is the breeders and owners that are responsible. My guess is all those dogs out there with one bad hip are the result of pilot error and has little to nothing to do with parentage. HD will never be fixed until people realize it isn't totally a genetic problem. Geneticist had to have know this years ago, but there is just to much money and jobs to be had. They keep it plausible by continually changing the probable cause. Let's face it, they either don't have a clue, or they know exactly what the problem is. $$$$$ is the problem, As far as Penn Hip, or OFA, doesn't really matter.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby KJ » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:34 am

Densa,

Hips are just one piece of a very complex puzzle that is breeding healthy, well-temperamented versatile hunting dogs (with wire coats!). While it is preferred to breed the dogs with tighter hips, I wouldn't say it is the rule. How tight are the hips of your bitch? How big of problem are hips in your breed? Is the stud dog with below average hips the more talented hunting dog? These are all questions to ask.

We all prefer the great hunting dogs with great hips, but if I had to choose, I would much rather have a great hunting dog with OK hips instead of an OK hunting dog with great hips. While OK hips probably won't improve the hips in your dogs, they will hunt just fine. We are not talking about dogs that have dysplastic hips that impact the dog's ability to do its job.

We have had very good luck with hips in the dogs we have worked with in our breed, GWPs. We have made just about made it through the alphabet with our litters and have had no known cases of hip dysplasia. We had only one OFA fair in our first litter 18 years ago. 5 out of the last 6 dogs in the OFA database are OFA Excellent. Out of the last 10 dogs PENNHIPPed, I think only 1 or 2 hips were even above .30 out of the 20 hip scores; everything comes back .24 to .29. Now I am not telling you this to pat myself on the back. I really can't take much credit for this excellent hip records since we have never made a conscious breeding decision based on hips. We were just fortunate that the dogs we wanted to use from a talent perspective had good hip genetics behind them. Why do I share this with you? Because if the best stud dog available right now had OFA Fair hips or a PENNHIP in the 60th %, I would not hesitate to use them. Why? Because I feel that we have a good enough handle on hips that I feel OK gambling a little to improve the dogs in other ways. Breeding great dogs is also about assessing risk and taking some chances at times in order to move forward. I believe breeders that play everything safe all of the time, play completely by the book, and breed based on a checkoff sheet produce more good dogs; not great dogs. Sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

As far as OFA vs PennHIP, I prefer PennHIP because I find the DI to follow a more heritable pattern with each generation. Hip genetics are complex, and a dog can get an OFA Fair or Good for many different reasons (one excellent hip and one OK hip, shallow sockets, deformed femoral head, etc. I think both methods are acceptable and when the hips are truly good, the method won't matter. They will come back OFA Excellent or below .30.

As far as dysplasia being affected by nutrition and environmental, I am sure there is some influence, but I think every breeder should assume any fault is genetic unless proven otherwise. If Pennhip showed two hips with drastically different DIs and there was a known injury, that would probably be the exception.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:33 pm

Good post KJ.

How much do folks think that the flooring of the kennel makes a difference on OFA or PENN scores? For example, if you have a dog that you wait two years to test and it comes back less than desireable on the score or rating, but the dog has lived most of its life on a hard surface (e.g., concrete or wood) in his or her kennel. Many dogs live on hard surfaces, so maybe it is not a contributing factor. Have there been any studies to show a correlation? Any anecdotal experiences?
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:54 pm

Google "environmental effects on hip dysplasia" .....and read.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby ryanr » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:44 pm

JTracyII wrote:Good post KJ.

How much do folks think that the flooring of the kennel makes a difference on OFA or PENN scores? For example, if you have a dog that you wait two years to test and it comes back less than desireable on the score or rating, but the dog has lived most of its life on a hard surface (e.g., concrete or wood) in his or her kennel. Many dogs live on hard surfaces, so maybe it is not a contributing factor. Have there been any studies to show a correlation? Any anecdotal experiences?


I don't think it's so much a hard surface as it is a slick one, such as linoleum or polished hardwood floors. Particularly for pups and young dogs who are still growing & maturing. I think joint injuries or degradation is more likely to happen on a slippery surface like linoleum and such injuries could then lead to HD. However I don't think there's any denying that HD is also genetic and that testing for it in potential breeding dogs is a sound practice in any breeding program and has helped limit the occurrence of HD in many litters of various breeds.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby bhennessy » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:03 pm

hicntry wrote:Google "environmental effects on hip dysplasia" .....and read.


It turns out that you can find anything you want on the internet, ranging from the factual across the spectrum to the completely illogical and even outright (shock) lies peddled as truths. I think I even found a post that correlated HD in a given dog with the time its owner spends on the internet. Who knew.

My point is that as a consumer of a well bred hunting dog, in exchange for my money I should be able to expect a dog that stays healthy and huntable through his prime. It won't always be this way, because as the science points out, there is plenty of unpredictability in if a given dog will develop HD (for example), even considering careful genetic and other breeding considerations. However, I don't see this as a reason to ignore the judicious use of hip scores before breeding two dogs. In fact, its all the more reason to look carefully for dogs that have demonstrated excellent hip scores.

The science clearly states that while there are probably lots of factors that contribute to HD presenting in a given dog, the single most reliable way to very significantly reduce the odds of a given dog developing HD is to establish "pedigree depth" in a breeding program...that is select dogs to breed that have a deep bench of HD free dogs behind them. Once this is established, then feel free to adhere to any number of other tests, diets, supplements, exercise regimens, floor slickness control measures, etc. that your expertise and wisdom as a breeder leads you to conclude are helpful. Although I did read a U Penn Vet School study that observed no correlation between diet and/or supplements and the "occurrence or course" of HD, beyond the effect of body mass on a dog. I'm not ready to believe this is definitive however, since they couldn't have possibly tested all the supplements and diet permutations available.

Which brings me back to my original opinion posted above: "I will always trust established objective science (when reasonably available) and those who adhere to it first and foremost. Beyond that, other factors become relevant, including a breeder's philosophy, expertise and wisdom."
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:43 am

Wellllll. You know what they say. You can take a horse to water, but, you can't make em drink. The info is out there, and yes, it is from scientific sources.......too bad science is 20 to 30 years behind what some working dog breeders knew years ago. Is it going to solve the problem? NO! As you can see, Many will still rely on hip testing. It may take them several more decades to realize, that, by the time they have their dog tested.....it is too late because the damage has been done. The bottom line according to the Institute of Canine Biology, all pups are born with "normal hips". The damage is done from environmental issues, such as poor handling , between birth and the first 3 months of age. Testing is "after" the fact. In the case of bad hips, the old science was bad science. They were determined to prove it was gentic and they couldn't do it after all these years. Even now, they are still trying to lay it off on a predisposition of HD genetics....only because they simply can't say it hasn't anything to do with genetics, except in the loosest of terms. Good news the tests are still valid and will tell you if you, should maybe, handle your pups differently.
Last edited by hicntry on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby KJ » Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:36 pm

Wellllll. You know what they say. You can take a horse to water, but, you can't make em drink. The info is out there, and yes, it is from scientific sources.......too bad science is 20 to 30 years behind what some working dog breeders knew years ago. Is it going to solve the problem? NO! As you can see, Many will still reyy on hip testing. It may them them several more decades to realize, that, by the time they have their dog tested.....it is too late because the damage has been done. The bottom line according to the Institute of Canine Biology, all pups are born with "normal hips". The damage is done from environmental issues, such as poor handling , between birth and the first 3 months of age. Testing is "after" the fact. In the case of bad hips, the old science was bad science. They were determined to prove it was gentic and they couldn't do it after all these years. Even now, they are still trying to lay it off on a predisposition of genetics....only because they simply can't say it hasn't anything to do with genetics, except in the loosest of terms. Good news the tests are still valid and will tell you if you, should maybe, handle your pups differently.


Then why do different breeds have considerably different HD rates?

And why is their obvious progeny patterns PennHIP DI and hip dysplasia from different stud dogs, when the litters are raised by a variety of different people?

To suggest that HD is purely environmental is probably the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board and I don't care who did the study. I bet there is 100 times the number of studies out there that support HD having a strong genetic component. By the way, I have always admired your cut throat approach to breeding better dogs and how you have learned from breeding experience; not what you read or heard, but I am not buying that one. I do agree that your approach to weeding out bad hips through performance is probably every bit as effective as testing hips. The problem is most people won't push their dog hard enough physically in a competitive format for that approach to work everyone.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:01 pm

Why can two dogs with perfect hips produce pups with bad hips? Why can two dogs with marginal hips produce dogs with good hips? Why do most dogs have a good hip and a bad hip? All this kind of contradicts genetics. Big dogs are supposed to be more susceptible than lighter dogs. Because of that big dog thing, they decided it was nutritional. It is BS. The dumbest thing see on this board is the fact that new science won't be accepted for, what did I , say, another 20 to 30 years. Bad science is why dogs have to be tested. Why do the leaders of bad science, OFA and Penn hip keep changing the probable causes of HD every few years? Because they don't know what causes it. First is was genetic, then a combination of genetic and nutrition, then it was polygenetic. Now science is catching up with what should have been common sense. Bad science will prevail for some time yet to be sure.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:05 pm

hicntry wrote:Why can two dogs with perfect hips produce pups with bad hips? Why can two dogs with marginal hips produce dogs with good hips?


Easy, because genetics are more complicated than that and sometimes genes can be recessive. I know you know this. Also, like you said there is a environmental component that contributes at times. This does not exclude the possibility of genetics also playing a major role.

Like KJ said, different breeds have consistently different HD scores. How do you explain this? Are you saying that the majority of American bred German Shepherd (known to often have terrible hip problems) breeders consistently raise their litters so much differently than, say PP breeders (who generally have good hips), that it leads to a significant difference in HD scores?

Or, lets just take German Shepherds alone. Are American breeders rearing them so much different than the European counterparts that it accounts for the vast difference in HD problems seen between the two types?
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:14 pm

Hicntry,

You have already said that the way you determined which stock to keep was to run the litters hard for 15 miles and keep the ones that finished first. Might this have contributed to you picking the ones that have better hips and passing on good genes in regards to hips?
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