PENN Hip?

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby orhunter » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:08 pm

German Shepherds are bred for how their rear end sits as compared to the front end, lower. They look like some sort of physical anomaly which directly relates to being predisposed for dysplasia. Blame it on the breed club who dictates the standard, the only breed who's standard mandates dysplasia.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:30 pm

orhunter wrote:German Shepherds are bred for how their rear end sits as compared to the front end, lower. They look like some sort of physical anomaly which directly relates to being predisposed for dysplasia. Blame it on the breed club who dictates the standard, the only breed who's standard mandates dysplasia.


I agree with you Orhunter and what you are saying is precisely what I am, "the HD found in American GSD's is a direct correlation to how they are bred, which is gene related."
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby KJ » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:43 pm

Why can two dogs with perfect hips produce pups with bad hips? Why can two dogs with marginal hips produce dogs with good hips? Why do most dogs have a good hip and a bad hip? All this kind of contradicts genetics.


How do those examples contradict genetics? How are are those examples any different that the ones below where like does not produce like, yet they can be explained through genetics?


How can two black dogs produce a liver dog? Paired recessive gene.

How can two dogs with beard/furnishings produce a dog without furnishings? Paired recessive gene.

How do two big dogs produce a small dog? Size is polygenic.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby orhunter » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:08 pm

One important factor is the number of genes required to produce a, "condition/trait." Just about everything associated with genetics, is not controlled by a single gene pair. Some things simply cannot be bred out because of the number of genes involved. But, every breeder needs to try. Roll the loaded dice, hope for the best.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:29 pm

"How can two black dogs produce a liver dog? Paired recessive gene."

Maybe it is as simple as there are liver dogs in the background

"How can two dogs with beard/furnishings produce a dog without furnishings? Paired recessive gene."

Because there are dogs with no furnishings in the background.

"How do two big dogs produce a small dog? Size is polygenic."

Because there are small dogs in the background.

Double recessives always show. Doesn't sound nearly as technical that way and most folks probably understand it put simply. We can go on with examples in nonsensicle form for ever, but, it would be crazy to say genetics don't play a part in just about everything. NEW science says all pups are born with "normal" hips. Normal encompassing from tight,to not as tight to poor. ....,.but they are shaped correctly. Genetics plays a part because as you move away from being tight the percentages of ruining the joint through improper handling gets more probable. I have never had a problem with bad hips and there is a reason. KJ, you say you have never had a problem with bad hips either. I am going to stick my neck out here and guess that you have to many dogs to be raising the pups in the house. Same reason I don't. I am also going to guess that you also use straw or wood shavings in your whelping boxes. You want to attribute not having hip problems to breeding only tested dogs.....but i just may be you don't/can't handle them like a hobby breeder. Genetics, when science started trying to prove it was the cause of HD, was in the dark ages compared to what it is today. Even today they can't lay it off on genetics. Probably a good reason why.
Last edited by hicntry on Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:51 pm

JTracyII, I didn't run them for the hips, I ran them because the standard wasn't fast enough and needed to be bred to the runners. It took three generations to take two 55# dogs that were 23" tall with short flat backs with high tail sets Into 90# dogs that were 27 to 29 inches tall with long roached backs and real low tail sets. The slower, fit the standard dogs, couldn't begin keep up but it had nothing to do with the hips. It was about the build. I am pretty sure the course they ran would have brought any hip issues to the fore front.....just didn't run them with that in mind at the time.

As for you GSD debate, I am going to pass because the whole dog is screwed up as are the rotties and boxers are headed down the same road with sloping top line I put a link up recently of what they are doing to them. Could they be brought back to the dog they once were. Yes, in the right hands and a few years.

Now, back to Netflix. Besides, we are beating a dead horse here. I already acknowledged that it will take another 20 or 30 years before the new science is accepted . Let's face it science is just now repeating what I said on this board years ago.
Last edited by hicntry on Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby bwjohn » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:12 pm

Plenty of legitimate resources have addressed the issue of hip dysplasia as being very much influenced by other factors than genetic alone. Not saying genetics doesn't play a role or eve a significant role, just there are other reasons as well.

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby cjm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:39 pm

Entertaining thread. If you want to really have your mind blown, start reading epigenetic research... e.g., environment can alter which genes are myelinated, changing gene expression, and - in some cases - this environmental influence may even be passed on to offspring. It's a little more tricky than punnett squares :)

bhennessy wrote: It turns out that you can find anything you want on the internet, ranging from the factual across the spectrum to the completely illogical and even outright (shock) lies peddled as truths.


Don't let this get out - it could really mess with a person's epistemological reliance on confirmation bias!
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