PENN Hip?

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PENN Hip?

Postby Densa44 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:55 am

Any one want to give an opinion here? I just had the 4th of our dogs x-rayed and it is an expensive process. The results give you a chart of where your dogs hips rate in the Pudelpointer's data base of all the dogs who have been previously tested. The Vets maintain that hip dysplasia can be eliminated by choosing a breed mate from about the 50th percentile.

The data base is at present about 250 dogs, presumably these are dogs that have been tested and the owners are considered breeding. The rub is 1/2 the dogs will be below the 50th. percentile.

Has anyone seen a PP with hip dysplasia? Second is test going to do anything to help the breed? BTW my dogs are O.K. but it is making it hard to find an acceptable sire.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:04 am

Yes, make sure your dog is not an outlier. Know what you are producing. The last thing you want is for dysplasia to develop at 7 years old after your dog has already produced several litters.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:33 am

I assume your kennel is a NAPPA kennel. All of the males must be tested for HD before approval for breeding as you already know I am sure. Have you talked to Bob Farris? He probably has several options that would be of good quality and might be willing to ship the semen.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby ryanr » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:52 am

Densa44 wrote:Any one want to give an opinion here? I just had the 4th of our dogs x-rayed and it is an expensive process. The results give you a chart of where your dogs hips rate in the Pudelpointer's data base of all the dogs who have been previously tested. The Vets maintain that hip dysplasia can be eliminated by choosing a breed mate from about the 50th percentile.

The data base is at present about 250 dogs, presumably these are dogs that have been tested and the owners are considered breeding. The rub is 1/2 the dogs will be below the 50th. percentile.

Has anyone seen a PP with hip dysplasia? Second is test going to do anything to help the breed? BTW my dogs are O.K. but it is making it hard to find an acceptable sire.


Well, if we're concerned about maintaining thecquality of the breed and striving to "breed the best with the best" shouldn't it require some effort to find a truly worthy stud (or b*tch) to breed to?

In answer to your question on whether health testing will help the breed, I think the answer is yes and the reason why is contained in that database of potential breeding dogs. You have a reference right there that rates the hips of each dog and what percentile it falls within. The breeder can use that information to help make a sound decision on breeding prospects.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:34 am

I figure dogs are like people. Few people have perfect hips. Most have average hips. Most of the average hip folks serve a full sound life. Depending on how they abused themselves through their life will determine how soon an the severity of the problems they have when old. Dogs are no different Some will be track stars, others get the job done. I don't figure a test is going to change much. You have a dog and get it tested. You got the same dog when you get home. Kind of like taking a bitch to the vet for a sonogram. 9 times out of 10 they are wrong. The bitch is going to have what she is going to have so why expose her to everything she may catch at the vets?
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby carramrod » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:30 pm

hicntry wrote:I figure dogs are like people. Few people have perfect hips. Most have average hips. Most of the average hip folks serve a full sound life. Depending on how they abused themselves through their life will determine how soon an the severity of the problems they have when old. Dogs are no different Some will be track stars, others get the job done. I don't figure a test is going to change much. You have a dog and get it tested. You got the same dog when you get home. Kind of like taking a bitch to the vet for a sonogram. 9 times out of 10 they are wrong. The bitch is going to have what she is going to have so why expose her to everything she may catch at the vets?


If there is a statistically advantageous test for determining whether or not a dog will genetically pass a greater possibility of bad hips to a litter, why not? We test and judge everything else in a dogs performance. Having a dog suffer from hip dysplaysia at an early age is no different from any other genetic issue that may be passed along.

If most dogs have average hips, most dogs also have average field work, prey drive, etc. I know you don't have that mindset on picking a puppy or breeding mates. Anything that can be done to better a breed or breeding should be. Plus a truly healthy dog and reputable vet makes for a very, very minor chance of picking up a sickness.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JASmith » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:54 pm

As I've read, there are basically two methods with pro's and cons of each. Penn Hip and OFA. OFA is lower cost, quicker, and any vet can do it. Penn Hip is more of a process and requires sedation, certification, etc. They each test in different ways. Ideally - test both. But it's not cheap to do that, and ideally both sire and dam would have it done pre-breeding, so it's doubly expensive. Penn Hip can supposedly leave the dog sore for a couple days also.

Just my 2 cents. :)
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby JTracyII » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:28 pm

For those who have had both penn hip and OFA done on the same dog, have you ever had a dog do much better on one of the tests than the other? For example, have you ever had a dog get a 'Fair with no sign of HD' in OFA and then score in the upper end percentile wise in their Penn Hip? Maybe the vets on this forum could shed some light? If I need to start a new thread I can?
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:50 pm

I don't do either, not a lot of responsible breeders in my area. The orthopedic specialists and such prefer Pennhip.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:55 pm

I had a 6 year old, 6 or 7 generation dog OFA'd once on a bet. A prospective buyer, aka dog expert, said Titan had bad hips because of the way he walked. Won that bet. LOL He was the first and last.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:26 pm

No comparison between the results from PennHip and OFA. Both are evaluating the hip joint, but in different manners. The PennHip method does use the OFA image as the start of their method. Lots of information on their respective websites.

I recently had a dog evaluated and OFA was evaluated as good, but her PennHip measurements were very high. In Griffons, the percentile scale is meaningless becuase there are a number of Griffon/Fousek crosses included in the data. Up to this point, PennHip has been resistant to separate these dogs out...

Personally, I won't use a dog if their PennHip measurement is much over .35, regardless of OFA rating. BTW...I recently had OFA, PennHip and OFA elbows done on a dog for about $400.

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby hicntry » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:10 pm

I run 6 or 7 dogs through about a a 15 mile course together. Steep uphills and down hills and flat ground. Maybe 15 miles. I kept the ones that finished first and got rid of the ones that lagged behind. I started with 2 show bred dogs and after 3 generations, the dogs had a completely different build. Only had the one tested at 6 years and he was very good. I do realize that many with a dog can't do it this way, but, testing isn't the only way to be responsible. The outcome was that I never had a problem with bad hips. What do I attribute it to? Not raising the pups indoors and slick floors where the pups hips are slayed straight out to the side. The hip joint isn't made to go straight out to the side.
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby STait » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:28 am

hicntry wrote:I run 6 or 7 dogs through about a a 15 mile course together. Steep uphills and down hills and flat ground. Maybe 15 miles. I kept the ones that finished first and got rid of the ones that lagged behind. I started with 2 show bred dogs and after 3 generations, the dogs had a completely different build. Only had the one tested at 6 years and he was very good. I do realize that many with a dog can't do it this way, but, testing isn't the only way to be responsible. The outcome was that I never had a problem with bad hips. What do I attribute it to? Not raising the pups indoors and slick floors where the pups hips are slayed straight out to the side. The hip joint isn't made to go straight out to the side.


I believe this kind of testing is more important than x-ray testing too, and every bit as responsible. I've used this example (photo of Sam running) on another site where the question was asked about Penn Hip or OFA.

Image

This dog is going 26 mph at 7 years old and does it on a regular basis. Does he have hip dysplasia?? Who knows for sure as he was never tested. I have a son of his that has that same long stride and gait and can absolutely fly across the ground at 15 months old. I may have his hips tested at 2 years old, but I believe it will be a waist of money.

A person replied to my post and told me about her 9x champion who lived to 14 years of age and ran hard his whole adult life. She said he was tested and had severe hip dysplasia, but his heart and drive was able to hide it. I like a dog with heart;-)
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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby Doc E » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:44 am

Misskiwi67 wrote:I don't do either, not a lot of responsible breeders in my area. The orthopedic specialists and such prefer Pennhip.


I can't believe that a Vet wouldn't have their own dogs checked by either OFA or PENN :puppydogeyes:
Or do you mean that you don't do either in your client dogs ? In which case, I understand your post.

PENN might be more accurate, but OFA is the "gold standard".

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Re: PENN Hip?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:03 pm

Doc E wrote:
Misskiwi67 wrote:I don't do either, not a lot of responsible breeders in my area. The orthopedic specialists and such prefer Pennhip.


I can't believe that a Vet wouldn't have their own dogs checked by either OFA or PENN :puppydogeyes:
Or do you mean that you don't do either in your client dogs ? In which case, I understand your post.

PENN might be more accurate, but OFA is the "gold standard".

.


My dogs are Drahthaars. I did hips, shoulders, and the optional elbows through the VDD.

I don't "do" as in I have never submitted either for a clients breeding dog. Prior to finding the VDD, I had no interest in any purebred dog, as Id not previously seen a pedigree worth the paper it was printed on.
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