New buyer, question on inbreeding

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New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby jlw034 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:58 am

Hi all,

I am wondering if I can get some advice on a particular breeding I am looking at. I know the versatile world is a small world so I am going to be intentionally vague with names.

This is a breeder who is a part of a known (and respected) breed club/alliance. He hasn't had litters at his kennel for several years, but several other kennels have used his stud with good results (via the NAVHDA registry).

This stud (who has an awesome pedigree) will be bred to his daughter (so father x daughter). He plans to keep one dog from the litter for himself as the stud is starting to get old.

FWIW looking at the father's pedigree, this will be the first occurrence of linebreeding or inbreeding as far back as his (edit) grandparents.

I've only had one conversation with him, and he seems like a good guy who knows what he's doing. He is only selling to hunters, and is planning this particular breeding because these are two of the best hunting dogs he's seen.

What questions/concerns should I have about this? Are there any specific things I should be asking or looking for?

I'm new to this whole game, and would appreciate any insight. Thanks.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:53 am

Any breeding is a crap shoot. When breeding this tight, yes, you are doubling up on the good traits, but also on the bad. Proceed with caution...

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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:41 am

What Jay said.

By your post, I'm going to assume we're talking PP's. The PP seems to be one of the cleanest breeds out there, lack of defects. Just make sure the breeders agreement includes if you're not happy with the pup, it can be returned.

I think it'll turn out better than breeding mother X son.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby GPBLITZ » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:17 am

I would learn everything I can about the ancestry . Eyes , hips , coats , bites, etc. Example , Make sure sire and dam have good bites , no off bites are butt bites. Butt bites can easily throw bad bites. A breeding like this can be super or belong in a trash can. I've done mother to son and would never do it again.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Densa44 » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:14 am

What these guys have said. At the most recent NAVHDA annual meeting in Portland a professor of Veterinary medicine from Oregon state spoke on this very topic.

What line/inbreeding brings with it is: Shortened life expectancy, compromised immune system, and as has been said serious genetic illnesses.

When you maximize the gene pool you get the benefits of hybrid vigor, and reduced likelihood of a serious genetic illness.

If it is a PP, I'd be surprised, the NAPPA has a software package available to member breeders, called Breedmate, (I think), which calculates the COI, Coefficient Of In breeding. The lower the number the better.

It is pretty hard to put a dog down because it has something wrong with it, I'd try to avoid this as much as I could.

Why not breed this great sire to a great unrelated bitch?
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Deacon » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:47 pm

What line/inbreeding brings with it is: Shortened life expectancy, compromised immune system, and as has been said serious genetic illnesses.


Line breeding also is responsible for our very breeds existence. Personally, I find COI terribly overrated. All thoroughbred racehorses trace their ancestry back to one of three stallions. The majority of top pigeon racers use heavily line bred birds. Every single Red Mountain Ratsnake in the herp trade (of which there are thousands) descends from one clutch of eggs.

We see it in our NAVHDA dogs as well. How many shorthairs go back to Hustler or Saddle? Sharp Shooter Kennels GSP's list 9 dogs in their breeding program on their website. Of those only 1 has a COI of less than 10. The rest are all between 10% and 20%. In field trials, how tight did Bob Whele breed his dogs? Whele was a huge proponent of line breeding (in both dogs and horses).

Cedarwoods Kennel's website says this :

"To maintain the genetic line of Pudelpointer that has given our kennel the high ranking it has today, we line breed our dogs while maintaining the motherline that we created from a very special Pudelpointer named Cedarwood’s Calendar Girl."

Now, the original poster's question is about inbreeding, and not line breeding, and I understand that is a different animal all together. I have seen a GSP mother x son breeding that created FC's. I have seen father x daughter breedings that have created UT dogs. Personally, if I were considering this breeding, I would want an extended health guarantee.

One thing is for sure, this breeding is likely to create a lot of attention if the pups are tested.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Calvinator » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:48 pm

The lower the COI is not always better. Line breeding has its place and should be used responsibly. I don't believe you can continue to improve your chosen breed by only outcrossing for maximum genetic diversity.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby jlw034 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:54 am

Thanks for the insight everyone.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:10 am

Inbreeding may work when you have real first hand knowledge of several generations of a pedigree. IMO...pups from inbreeding should be held close until they can be evaluated...by the breeder or by trusted friends.
Its impossible to tell which pups will be the most promising for future breeding or which might reveal problems. A good friend used inbreeding to solidify his bitch line and it worked very well with few if any problems...but he knew the last
20 years of dogs in the pedigree personally.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:24 am

Also know that hybrid vigor is a myth. I see a large number of mix breeds at the clinic that have inherited genetic faults from both parents. My own shar pei lab mix struggled with allergies his whole life and died of a rare cancer at the age of 7. They are now coming out with studies finding that mutts are no less affected than their parents.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Chadwick » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:35 pm

DrahtsundBraats wrote: Its impossible to tell which pups will be the most promising for future breeding or which might reveal problems.


It would be interesting to know if the puppies that require human intervention to survive right after being born are the ones that go on to have problems. I don't breed dogs, so I do not know. For anyone who breeds, do you track that kind of information?

Kiwi,

I would not say that hybrid vigor is a myth, but you have to wonder if there is not more survival of the fittest with mutts since they have little economic value at birth.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby KJ » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:49 pm

jlw034,
It would be impossible for anybody to give you good advice on this situation without having intimate first-hand experience with the sire, dam and several other closely related dogs. In many breedings like this, you may be lucky enough to find one or two people qualified to give a valid opinion. There are also many very tight breedings where there really isn't anybody (including the breeder) who has enough experience with enough dogs from the line to be able to provide valuable input, yet these breedings still happen. Even if you do get good input from somebody who truly knows the dogs, you are still rolling the dice. Even the best breeders are going to get results that were not exactly as they expected.

With that said, I will still throw out my opinion based on the limited information that was provided.....as dangerous as that might be!

If I were a breeder that has accepted that he/she is going to go through a number of dogs to find a few great dogs for breeding, then I would take a chance on this inbred litter on two highly talented individuals.

If I were Joe Hunter and going to keep the dog forever, no matter what, I would probably choose a different litter. Joe Hunter is looking for a healthy, above average hunting dog and a 1st generation tightly inbred litter (I am making the assumption the parents are outcrossed or loosely linebred) just has more risk.


Many people assume that inbreeding or linbreeding produces consistency - and with generations of breeding like dogs from the same family - yes, that is true. But, you are really linebreeding on a dog's genetics (genotype), not the dog itself (phenotype). So, if you inbred on an outcrossed dog made up of several different types of dogs, it is anybody's guess what you will get, and it it certainly possible to get offspring much different than the inbred parent when you double up the recessives hiding in the background.


Also know that hybrid vigor is a myth. I see a large number of mix breeds at the clinic that have inherited genetic faults from both parents. My own shar pei lab mix struggled with allergies his whole life and died of a rare cancer at the age of 7. They are now coming out with studies finding that mutts are no less affected than their parents.


Misskiwi67,
I disagree that hybrid vigor is a myth, but it surely is not a magic bullet for breeding two inferior individuals to begin with. I think inbreeding, linebreeding, and outcrossing all have their place, but I agree with Calvin that it is hard to make genetic progress with continuous random outcrossing. Hybrid vigor seems to come into play the most when breeding two tightly linebred animals of different genetics, but similar type. If these linebred parents are still exceptional animals, you often get offspring better than the parents. You don't get quite the same hybrid vigor "boost" from simply outrcrossing every generation. Outcrossing two inbred families is pretty common recipe with beef cattle (i.e. angus x herferd), other livestock, racing pigeons, etc.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Misskiwi67 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:54 pm

Here's the summary of the study I mentioned. I suppose you can interpret it either way, but it's good food for thought.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=29634
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby orhunter » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:08 pm

Kelly: You've brought a lot to the table for consideration but there is one thing few discuss, that being back breeding. Do you, or anyone out there, be willing to open this can of worms? Personally, I think this is an under valued asset in the dog world. I know this isn't completely foreign to the PP gene pool but what about the DD/GWP? I'm thinking with the gene pool being so large, and the extensive diversity to maintain quality is firmly in place, it is never seriously considered. But. Would it do any measurable harm? Would it produce any measurable gain? Would it cause a person to become ostracized by his/her peers to suggest such an thought? I hardly think anyone could be criticized for implementing such a undertaking.

Some breeds, like the Griffon, do not have the luxury of back-breeding because of it's obscure background. It's really a shame. Those without this restriction might be truly missing out on something?
Last edited by orhunter on Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New buyer, question on inbreeding

Postby Deacon » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:43 am

I think the evidence of hybrid vigor is far more established in plants than it is in mammals. That said, there are many examples of a line bred family receiving a performance boost from an outside bloodline. An example of this would likely be the Elhew Pointers who had tremendous success after being out crossed to Guard Rail. In PP's certain breeders have found that out crossing to certain European females has created favorable results.
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