Stud dog owners

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Stud dog owners

Postby DrahtsundBraats » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:24 pm

Just wondering what stud dog owners ask for as far as information when they get inquiries about a breeding. I always thought that a stud dog owner has just as much right as far as a decision to do breeding...but as of late i'm sort of getting the impression that some owners feel that all they have to do is make the telephone call.

Just wondering...
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby Constructeur » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:30 pm

I'm still very new to all this, so my opinion may only be worth $.01 and not the full $.02 8) I've always assumed that the stud owner gets a say in the whole process. It's not about the money, it's about breeding quality dogs, so why wouldn't they?
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby Doc E » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:38 pm

With our stud dog (Labrador) we require all of the current genetic tests (OFA hips, OFA elbows, CERF, CNM, EIC and PRA) and if the female has been bred before, a Brucellosis test within 30 days prior to breeding.
If the bitch has titles, we also need to know.

.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby GPBLITZ » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:07 pm

I reguire Hips , OFA or Penn Hip, good bite, and Brucellosis test, bred before or not. My male will also be tested for brucellosis before each breeding. Everybody seems to have a quality female. There have been females that have come in for breeding that I have sent home with some unhappy owners . Females not up to snuff ( issues not meeting requirement ). Those pups produced are a reflection on your male. Seems many like to blame the male for any down fall with the pups..
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby gwp4me2 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:28 pm

My male is from KJ's kennel and carries that name. I owe it to him to only allow Max to be bred to quality females. Hips, thyroid, bite, tested or trialed successfully under good judges. I tell people he is only paired with females that i would want a puppy from.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby Constructeur » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:48 pm

gwp4me2-

You're Brett right? When I first saw this post I initially thought of guys like KJ and Art Trujillo and how particular they are. The fella I train the most with has 2 Blue Collar Kennel dogs, and I've been able to watch and plant birds for a number of Bonepoint dogs, next level stuff IMO.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby GPBLITZ » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:27 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:My male is from KJ's kennel and carries that name. I owe it to him to only allow Max to be bred to quality females. Hips, thyroid, bite, tested or trialed successfully under good judges. I tell people he is only paired with females that i would want a puppy from.


IMO I owe the breeder nothing. I owe it to the breed to be selective on females and males I choose. Testing and trialing, I believe in testing and trialing as a measure to a point. I seen many dogs From T&T that I would and would not breed to. IMO folks get hung up on titles, both breeders and buyers. IMO hunting dogs , wild bird dogs are a great measure of a dog.. I have on problem breeding to a out and out wild bird dog that stack up to requirements. Those dogs carry the genetics that I like. You hit the nail on the head. Don't breed to something that you would not want a pup from. Though I have to be honest, I have breed to females I was iffy on as far as measuring up in the field, health no.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:43 pm

... you'll stand head and shoulders above many by being knowledgeable about the gene pool (but not snobbish), honorable, and idealistic like one of the first stud dog owners I ever contacted was to me.

Scott Seeley told me that he'd like a $500 (yes, it's been a while ago) stud fee in his pocket as much as the next guy, BUT he knew my DD and her lines. And, he suggested another guy's (Leigh Betsch) stud that he felt would complement her much better than his.

He was old school, without ego, a class act, just a good guy... an example for other stud owners (and breeders) to emulate!!!

But, that's just me.

Regards,

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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby ryanr » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:18 pm

You guys might find this a bit funny. Last spring, I had an old timer contact me thru another forum about breeding my dog to his bitch. I was both surprised and flattered and a bit naïve too. I told him my dog wasn't even 2yrs old or finished and had only tested at the NA level. Apparently his female was out of the same kennel as mine. That was all he really cared about. I have to admit I sorta entertained the idea, at the time I could've used an extra $500-600 but I felt uneasy about it. In my gut I knew this was basically your so-called "backyard breeding" which is not something I believe in. Still I talked some more to this guy. The more we talked the more uncomfortable I got. I got to different ages for his female, "about 9yrs old" and then "around 6 I think." I also never got any other solid information on the dog or its health. I also asked a couple of friends I train with if they knew him. That's when I learned things that confirmed my own initial uneasiness. He kept his last litter in a filthy rabbit hutch and was basically some old guy with a poor unfortunate bitch he got out of a good kennel and was just finding unwitting owners of purebred males to get pups out of just for money. So I finally told him I didn't think it was going to work out and I wasn't going to breed my me to his female. At first I just said I didn't think my breeder would appreciate it and my contract probably didn't allow it. He got mad so then I told him I wasn't going to do it because I just didn't believe in throwing two purebreds together just for pups to make money.

Next thing I knew, he said HE WAS GOING TO SUE ME for breach of contract! (we had never signed anything or finalized anything verbally.)
Last edited by ryanr on Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby gwp4me2 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:38 am

GPBLITZ wrote:IMO I owe the breeder nothing.

So when you sell puppies to people you don't care at all what they do with them? KJ takes good care of me and I'm not going to put his kennel name a a litter of marginal or worse puppies. More and more quality breeders are putting limited registrations on puppies until the owner can show the dog to be good breeding stock. I have no problem with that and am happy to talk to him about every potential mate. He knows my dogs lines better than I do and what would be a good complimentary female and what wouldn't.
GPBLITZ wrote: I have on problem breeding to a out and out wild bird dog that stack up to requirements. Those dogs carry the genetics that I like.

How do you identify these dogs that are 2 states away? In my area every single intact female is 'the best hunting dog any of us have ever seen!' even the ones that just run around in the cover until a bird flies and retrieve part way sometimes. The tested and trial dogs have at least been looked at by somebody who has seen a lot of dogs. It also shows at least some level of investment of effort by the owner. That being said a NA/JH title mean very little. It is very educational to take some of these people out and show them what a really good dog can do. Many come away much less impressed with their own feather finder and hopefully raise their sights.

As to the health screenings I've had people who wanted to breed that literally had never heard of hip xrays or thyroid tests.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby orhunter » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:17 am

NA titles mean very little. I agree to a point. As an individual score correct, not much meaning there. Crap dogs can turn out a good pup even with the odds stacked against it. An entire litter that averages, let's say, 105 or better, has significant meaning.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby Constructeur » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:54 am

Orhunter,

Just saw on Instagram a fella 'starting' a kennel with a NA x NA breeding. One of the dogs comes from a VC, but... 8)
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby GPBLITZ » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:02 pm

gwp4me2 wrote:GPBLITZ wrote:IMO I owe the breeder nothing.
So when you sell puppies to people you don't care at all what they do with them?


My statement has nothing to do with your question. We all care what type of home a pup goes to.

GPBLITZ wrote:IMO I owe the breeder nothing. I owe it to the breed to be selective on females and males I choose.


Breeders and good breeders come and go, we live and die. The breed always lives on. When I breed I try to better what I have in my kennel but the over all picture is bettering the breed. So IMO the breeder (ME) is secondary and the breed is primary.

gwp4me2 wrote: KJ takes good care of me and I'm not going to put his kennel name a a litter of marginal or worse puppies


The breeder of your dog allows you to put their kennel on pups you produce or sired by your stud ? Why would anyone who cares about breed betterment want to produce marginal or worse pups.

gwp4me2 wrote: More and more quality breeders are putting limited registrations on puppies until the owner can show the dog to be good breeding stock.


I'm not a believer in limited reg. To me it's breeders trying to control others. JMO There are many times I talk to other breeders about potential breedings even with in my own dogs.

gwp4me2 wrote: The tested and trial dogs have at least been looked at by somebody who has seen a lot of dogs. It also shows at least some level of investment of effort by the owner.


We see good dog and marginal dogs in every venue. Titles can be desiving . How many MH's have run 20 plus time to earn the title. How many UT dogs have run 8, 10 times to pull down a UT-1 ? IMO you have dip S$%t owner trainer or a dip sh^ t dog. At times I've seen a handler come test carrying a BB gun or a carved wooden gun . What that tell you. For me hunting first, test dog second. If a dog can not handle wild birds consistantly the dogs not worth the titles they earn playing games... JMO
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby orhunter » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:16 pm

Constructuer: Go to the Invitational some time. You'll see a ton of dogs that don't pass that any one of us would be happy with. And winners that make you ask, what the heck is that dog doing here? The VC isn't a ticket to stardom in the breeding world. GPBlitz is on the right track.
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Re: Stud dog owners

Postby gwp4me2 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:06 pm

GPBLITZ wrote:We see good dog and marginal dogs in every venue. Titles can be desiving . How many MH's have run 20 plus time to earn the title. How many UT dogs have run 8, 10 times to pull down a UT-1 ? IMO you have dip S$%t owner trainer or a dip sh^ t dog. At times I've seen a handler come test carrying a BB gun or a carved wooden gun . What that tell you. For me hunting first, test dog second. If a dog can not handle wild birds consistantly the dogs not worth the titles they earn playing games... JMO

It is very simple to see exactly how many times a dog tested in NAVHDA and at what age along with the specific scores. You can also easily find how every pup from it's parents did. Were they owner handled or a trainer, etc. I would never pretend that this is the most important piece to the puzzle but it is useful information. I would contend that unless you or someone you trust sees a dog on wild birds that can be even more worthless. I could take out my wife's cockapoo and literally kill 100's of wild birds a year if I had the time. Ruffed grouse in the west will just fly up in a tree when you walk by. Pheasants can easily be killed even without a dog. Same thing with chukars. In the west boot leather and a good hatch can allow you to take a lot of tail-gate photos and brag about what a great 'wild bird dog' you have. Around here they may actually be the least known commodity because all you have to go by is the owner's word for it. Maybe a better general rule would be to evaluate a female based on how many dogs the owner goes through in search of a breedable specimen. If every dog they get is a great dog???????
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