Pancreatitis

Diseases, proactive care, geriatric issues, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:01 pm

Any experience with this among you?

Is there any treatment beyond bland, fat free diet?

How long does this last?
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:29 pm

Tons of experience, it's very common. it's also very likely to recur on a high fat diet.

How sick is your pup?
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:56 pm

Three nights ago, she puked everything up she'd eaten that day. Everything should have been out of her stomach. Wouldn't eat her breakfast. Took her for an AM walk and seemed okay. Made her a bland meal, brown rice and hamburger. She ate a lot and kept it down overnight. Wouldn't eat her breakfast. Took her for an AM walk, seemed okay. Wouldn't eat her rice an hamburger when we got home, wouldn't eat it later. Took her to vet at 3:00. brought a fecal sample, they got urine and blood. Took abdominal X-ray's, showed stuff in her stomach which should have been empty. She ate her dog bone treat and wife got a little meat down her and a bit of yogurt before we went to bed. Wouldn't eat her breakfast. We went up to the lake for a run, she did better than she has in a long time. Took a big, runny poop at the beginning. Happy, enthusiastic. Ate her breakfast on the way home. She stayed out in the vehicle all afternoon, puked twice, everything she'd eaten since last evening, vehicle stinks. She drinks a lot of water every day. She ate a little chicken breast that I cooked this afternoon, didn't touch the fresh cooked rice. Wife has her out for a walk right now. Lots of enthusiasm to get going.

Can I hunt her like this? Was headed to ND a week from Monday. Bad idea????

Lab reports were normal except for the Pancreas stuff.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby lanco » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:06 pm

This is not a common disease in large breed dogs, and if your dog has pancreatitis they would normally have other abnormalities on bloodwork besides elevated pancreatic values. That said treatment is basic supportive care for nausea: fluids, low fat diet, anti-emetics, pain control if indicated. I would not hunt this dog until all GI signs were resolved for 5 days at least.
lanco
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:41 am

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Spy Car » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:09 pm

Here is what I (as a laymen) don't understand about the current understandings of causes and treatments for pancreatitis. I'm hoping the resident vets will help me out.

To me there seems a fixation on the "triggering event" (like the high fat holiday meal), but less focus and understanding of why the pancreas is ill in the first place (assuming a healthy pancreas won't be prone to such attacks). Seemingly ignored in the equation of pancreatic health is the role of high carbohydrates diets.

The two roles of the pancreas are to regulate blood sugar via the endocrine system with the release of hormones like insulin and glucagon to regulate blood glucose. Seems to me that dogs eating a high-carb modern kibble diet are putting a huge stress on the pancreas to produce hormones at levels they were not shaped by evolution to handle. Yet I don't see this discussed as a factor in why we see so many dogs with an unhealthy pancreas.

The other role of the pancreas is to produce enzymes to digest food. Here again, it seems to me, that the role of high-carbohydrate diets is acting as a major stressor on the pancreas. Carbohydrates require the pancreas produce the enzyme amylase to convert starch to sugar. The problem is, while studies that some dogs have developed an uneven improvement over wolf members of their common species to produce amylase it remains that the huge percentages of carbohydrates are not something it appears dogs were shaped by evolution to tolerate well. If the diet is demanding the production of amylase that is at capacity (or beyond) the ability of the pancreas, wouldn't we expect the pancreas to be stressed and predisposed to problems?

I have to wonder if there isn't a holistic problem at the root of the problem that is being (largely) missed?

I also wonder about the dietary advice post incident. If the goal of a low-fat diet is to reduce the production of lipase, the enzyme that the pancreas produces to digest fat, but the void is filled by increased carbohydrates is that really a benefit, as the literature shows that carbohydrates raise lipase levels nearly as much as fat?

Have you had experience with feeding high protein diets like bone-in de-skinned raw chicken, lean meat, and small amounts of organ as recovery diet? This is a case of "asking" not "telling." But if the pancreas is stressed by a high carbohydrate diet, as I believe is the case, simply cutting fats (which may indeed be a trigger for an unhealthy organ) seems like half measure. Especially if fats in the diet are simply replaced with increased carbohydrates.

Thoughts?

Bill
Spy Car
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:35 pm

I do know for a fact that dogs with a history of pancreatitis have a decreased recurrence when fed a low (10% dry matter or less) fat diet. I've seen so many recurrence episodes when owners switched back to regular food after long periods of good control on prescription diets. I also watched my parents struggle with recurring episodes until they sucked it up and got rid of all the treats in the house.

I've seen uncountable cases of dogs getting ill after getting a high fat treat, bacon grease, hot dogs, getting into the trash. One memorable case ate a child's vomit containing pepperoni pizza.

I can't think of a dog getting pancreatitis on a raw diet, but the number of dogs I see on such a diet is very low.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:33 pm

Thanks for all the thought provoking stuff here.

Let me provide my dog's dietary history:

She's been getting a fried egg for breakfast for years, cooked almost exclusively in bacon grease. I try to drain it so as to prevent a fat overload.

2% fat yogurt

Thin slice of Liverwurst in the AM as part of my wife's regiment to spoil the dog.

Occasionally licking a plate or pan to clean off remaining meal. Probably high fat but low quantity.

Mixture of her dry food totaling around 29% protein and 17% fat.

Low fat dog bone treat every evening.

She is tolerating her chicken breast/white rice diet very well. Happy, lots of energy. Don't know how to balance this diet with the proper amount of rice to meat. Any help is welcome.

Vitamin supplement I would think is in order but what?

She has had salmon poisoning maybe three times in the past. Last time she had the Hershey squirts, I took her to the vet and the test was negative. Her treatment helped her improve but never was complete till I gave her Tetracycline for 2 1/2 days. I started her on Tetracycline yesterday, she has received three doses at this point, I'll give her one more this evening.

Wondering when I should have another blood test done?

Thanks for all the help so far.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Misskiwi67 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:17 pm

If she's feeling good, then Id slowly start mixing her regular kibble into her chicken and rice. She doesn't sound sick enough to have had pancreatitis.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:02 pm

"doesn't sound sick enough for pancreatitis."

I'm leaning that way also, been thinking that based on what I've read. Will treat as if it is and see what develops. Caution....
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Spy Car » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:34 am

Orhunter, I hope your dog feels well very soon.

Bill
Spy Car
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 2:54 pm

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Ellie is pretty much her old self. Having trouble adjusting to getting four small meals a day. She doesn't know when dinner is any more.

Mixed in some Hills Lite at 7% fat for two of her meals today. She feels better having something in her stomach besides rice and chicken. Going to go easy on regular dog food reintroduction.

Still can't understand how her blood test came back as it did showing a problem with her pancreas? I'm leaning toward Giardia or similar. She did drink some park water that ducks frequent and there are beavers living upstream. I did mention this to the Vet.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby Misskiwi67 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:19 am

Anything that causes Generalized GI inflammation can cause an increase in those values. Dogs with GI obstruction and adult dogs with Parvo can test positive. pancreatitis severity can be anything from very mild to deadly. It's not perfect science.

Glad to hear your pup is feeling better. That's what really matters.
Vivian II vom Jagdkonig- VJP 71 HZP 191 VGP 262 Prize III
Arabella vom Hoheren Boden- VJP 74 HZP 181/189 VGP 281 Prize I
User avatar
Misskiwi67
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1808
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:04 pm
Location: Iowa

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby orhunter » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:59 am

Misskiwi:

A appreciate all your help and insight. You're an asset to the V-Dogs team.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7293
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby lanco » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:47 am

Pancreatitis occurs when, for reasons we still struggle to entirely understand, granulocytic white blood cell accumulate in the pancreas and begin inadvertently activating the inactive digestive enzymes (proenzymes) therein. These enzymes then digest the pancreas itself. It does not involve the insulin/ glucagon or endocrine function of the pancreas. Pancreatitis once initiated becomes a vicious cycle of inflammation begeting auto-digestion begeting cellular damage which drives further inflammation. Dogs with pancreatitis are painful and lethargic not just suffering from mild indegestion.


Pancreatitis is fairly overdiagnosed for several reasons:
1) Amylase and Lipase can be elevated due to the very act of vomiting.

2) pressure from owners to explain "WHY". No vet wants to run a few hundred $$ of bloodwork and then shrug at you

3) Since most GI issues are self limiting or will respond to antiemetics, antacids, fluids, analgesics and flagyl it's a pretty benign misdiagnosis, better yet you read up on the horrors of pancreatitis and your dog is better in 36 hours so you think you have a wundervet!

4) the first line "basic bloodwork" is correlated to a standard deviation of X number of samples, not to disease states. Thus if we run 10-20 values finding 1 slightly out of range is not mathematically unexpected.


Dogs with pancreatitis usual have 250% or greater than normal amylase and lipase, significantly elevated neutrophils or neutropenia with immature neutrophils present and, some elevation of liver values. There are exceptions to every rule of course. The diagnosis can be confirmed through additional testing or ultrasound.
Last edited by lanco on Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
lanco
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:41 am

Re: Pancreatitis

Postby lanco » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:59 am

Most cases of pancreatitis that I have seen in sporting breeds (excluding cocker) were associated with a massive fatty meal , like drinking out a fry daddy after a fish fry. Many small breed dogs have reccurent and chronic pancreatitis that isn't clearly linked to an unusually fatty meal. All dogs with pancreatitis should be on a low fat diet although the duration of such diets is dictated by circumstances. Although severe cases of pancreatitis can cause transient interruption of insulin production there is no evidence that islet cell exhaustion due to high carbohydrate diets has any role in this disease. If one could formulate a nutritionally appropriate high protein, low carb, low fat diet it wound also work and I have seen owners home cook some diets in this vein. Canned prescription food works well though.
lanco
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:41 am

Next

Return to Healthcare

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests